KW-1 needs a closer look

The following changes will result in KV-1’s being 25% faster to repair.

KW-1 desperately needed that just to even its repair speed in comparison to other factions engineers plus doctrinal repair abilities. Churchills as one example in a similar combat role with 1400hp(!) can be send back to battle pretty fast with anvil engineers and doctrinal self repair. Two KW-1 doctrines only have the lousy soviet engineers, the third has the conscript repair in addition which is pretty lousy too. It still takes forever to repair high health soviet tanks if you don't pick a doctrine with self repair or the repair station.

I would like to propose my idea for a KV1 rework.

I think the lethality of the KV1 will always be underwhelming. After all this was a tank that was deemed disappointing in the 1940 winter war. Based on the 1944 tech available in coh2, the KV1 is obsolete. I believe trying to make this tank work as a traditional tank will never make it work. Therefore I think it should become more of a utility vehicle.

New design proposal: Command KV1, limited to 1 on the field

Cost: 400mp 120 fuel
Stats: current stats for main gun and hull mg
Upgrades: Tank commander upgrade, adding 10 sight and improved main gun accuracy
Alternatively, dshka hmg that can function as AA
Remove the damage reduction modifier.
Scrap previous abilities
Ability 1: vet 0, combat engineers can hull down KV1, improving its rate of fire, range and making the hull mg act as a maxim with suppression and damage. To get out of the hull down, combat engineers have to dig it out.
Ability 2: Vet 1 capture sector, disabling guns
Ability 3: vet 2 smoke area which drops green smoke on a section of the front. Artillery or mortars firing at that location receive lower scatter.
Ability 4: vet 3 provide healing aura around the tank for 20 seconds for 30 munitions.

Due to abilities gained with vet, no combat bonuses should be given to the KV1.

KW-1 desperately needed that just to even its repair speed in comparison to other factions engineers plus doctrinal repair abilities. Churchills as one example in a similar combat role with 1400hp(!) can be send back to battle pretty fast with anvil engineers and doctrinal self repair. Two KW-1 doctrines only have the lousy soviet engineers, the third has the conscript repair in addition which is pretty lousy too. It still takes forever to repair high health soviet tanks if you don't pick a doctrine with self repair or the repair station.

No one actually cares why KV1 has .8 received damage. Your arguments are made to be convenient although some of they are correct.

KV1 vs Pz4 duel was a pretty bad point of discussion to begin with. The experienced players evaluate when and where to fight, in a dead man zone or inside the enemy lines, its all up to the player. If the player f'ed up and decided to go deep, i can guarantee that both, KV1 and Pz4 will be lost. Frontal to frontal fights are even again because KV1 faster repair and extra hp and Pz4 because can retreat and better armored against kv1 shots.

The point no one makes is that KV1 can threat a Pz4 enough that a little side play can guarantee the win. Cons can run so damn fast and snare the Pz4 and thats it, its an uneven duel there.

I do like the aura vet1, i do like to give the tank other functionalities but the raw performance is Ok. Its a defensive oriented low tier heavy tank. It does threat infantry well too. A little buff on their Mgs was said too and sounds Ok to fight off the new Pgren meta.
To buff indiscriminately Kv1s because they are not meta is simply trash powercreep

20 % not 10 it has 0.8 reduced damage

To give the KV-1 a more defined role as a breakthrough unit, we are slightly increasing its durability, and significantly increasing the rate at which it can get repaired. The following changes will result in KV-1’s being 25% faster to repair.

Now has a 0.8 received damage modifier

Thanks for the info, I stand corrected.

Then the KV1 seems to be very decent against other mediums, even economically. It's just unreliable due to the high rng on both penetrating and getting penetrated. But it should be better than both P4s.

Thanks for the info, I stand corrected.

Then the KV1 seems to be very decent against other mediums, even economically. It's just unreliable due to the high rng on both penetrating and getting penetrated. But it should be better than both P4s.

But it is a Tier4 heavy tank that comes a lot later than a PZIV and especially way later than a StuG III G, which is a way bigger thread for it. Actually KW-1 comes halfway between PZIV and Panther.

It was good as it is as it was a call-In. In that days you skipped T4 and used the call-in to put the tech cost directly into the tank. That way the first KW-1 was pretty cheap. After putting the unit in tech it just got a bad timing space in T4. Ostheer PZIV and T34/76 both come out 55 fuel earlier, both have greater shock value for opponents infantry and are a lot more flexible.

So again. A buff of the MGs to T34/76 level is surely not too much to ask for. Some utility ability like a smoke shell or a infantry suppression ability would help to use it as a breakthrough or defensive tool (choose your liking).

If the enemy has to run away because they will lose, even if that's not a kill its still a victory...

But it is a Tier4 heavy tank that comes a lot later than a PZIV and especially way later than a StuG III G, which is a way bigger thread for it. Actually KW-1 comes halfway between PZIV and Panther.

It was good as it is as it was a call-In. In that days you skipped T4 and used the call-in to put the tech cost directly into the tank. That way the first KW-1 was pretty cheap. After putting the unit in tech it just got a bad timing space in T4. Ostheer PZIV and T34/76 both come out 55 fuel earlier, both have greater shock value for opponents infantry and are a lot more flexible.

So again. A buff of the MGs to T34/76 level is surely not too much to ask for. Some utility ability like a smoke shell or a infantry suppression ability would help to use it as a breakthrough or defensive tool (choose your liking).

I do have the feeling that it is a tiny bit underwhelming, but that does not mean that it would be uneconomic against mediums. It's bad against heavier armor where it can't really deal damage. And it can't really kill mediums unless your enemy is asleep due to relatively low speed (The only Axis tanks that are slower than the KV1 are also stronger) and low pen. KV1 vs P4 will just lead to an endless battle of two tanks slugging it out while bouncing at least half of the hits. This means that a big investment of the SOV player is not suited to really deal killing blows, since everything can retreat away from it, even infantry. So now it's in a weird spot. It's role is driving up and soaking damage, but the enemy is probably better off just focussing all other units except the KV1. A Churchill can deal decent damage on it's own if it's too close due to an okay-ish gun, MGs and hand grenades. KV1 is a bit worse in all categories, so ignoring it as long as needed is probably the better choice.

To your timing point:
Does it really come that much later (please correct me if I'm way off in the fuel costs below)?
OKW:
15 truck, 35 med base, 15 truck, 120 Panzer HQ, 140 P4
=325 fuel (likely +15 fuel for medics)

SOV:
15 T1, 85 T3, 80 T4, 145 KV1
=325 fuel

I think I'm somewhere off in the building costs, but not by far (maybe 10 fuel or so). SOV T2 build will come around 25 fuel later with side tech. OKW T2 build is the same 340 fuel.
Can't say much about OST since I really can't remember the building costs. I just know that BP1 is 40 fuel and BP2 is 90. Buildings were relatively cheap with around 20(?) fuel each, so 60 for the buildings, 130 for BPs, 120 for the tank would be approx. 310 fuel.

To your timing point:
Does it really come that much later (please correct me if I'm way off in the fuel costs below)?
OKW:
15 truck, 35 med base, 15 truck, 120 Panzer HQ, 140 P4
=325 fuel (likely +15 fuel for medics)

SOV:
15 T1, 85 T3, 80 T4, 145 KV1
=325 fuel

I think I'm somewhere off in the building costs, but not by far (maybe 10 fuel or so). SOV T2 build will come around 25 fuel later with side tech. OKW T2 build is the same 340 fuel.
Can't say much about OST since I really can't remember the building costs. I just know that BP1 is 40 fuel and BP2 is 90. Buildings were relatively cheap with around 20(?) fuel each, so 60 for the buildings, 130 for BPs, 120 for the tank would be approx. 310 fuel.

The following numbers are assuming you are teching directly for it. In a 1vs1 this won't happen, but you can assume both players will spend around the same number of fuel on side techs (Soviet/OKW), optional T1 and T2 building (Ostheer) or vehicles and light tanks (all). So we can take the numbers as an orientation for timing. In bigger game modes it is a common tactic that one or two players in the team are teching as fast as they can to get a shock unit asap.

Ostheer (BP = Battlephase):
BP1 = 40
BP2 = 90
T3 building = 15
PZIV = 120

Alltogether 265 - Starting fuel of 10 = 255 fuel
(StuG III G comes at 225 fuel)


Soviet
T1 building = 10
T3 building = 85
T4 building = 90
KW-1 = 145

Alltogether 330 - Starting fuel of 20 = 310 fuel
(T34/76 comes at 255 fuel like PZIV)


I didn't compare to OKW in my post, because there it is much harder to compare. Are we playing a 1vs1 where OKW is dependend on salvage only or are we playing a 2vs2 with an Ost mate who builds the caches while OKW still can salvage. This is a huge difference that really makes any comparison very hard if not obsolete. Your numbers are correct with the exception of the medtruck that costs 25 fuel instead of 35 fuel.

The following numbers are assuming you are teching directly for it. In a 1vs1 this won't happen, but you can assume both players will spend around the same number of fuel on side techs (Soviet/OKW), optional T1 and T2 building (Ostheer) or vehicles and light tanks (all). So we can take the numbers as an orientation for timing. In bigger game modes it is a common tactic that one or two players in the team are teching as fast as they can to get a shock unit asap.

Ostheer (BP = Battlephase):
BP1 = 40
BP2 = 90
T3 building = 15
PZIV = 120

Alltogether 265 - Starting fuel of 10 = 255 fuel
(StuG III G comes at 225 fuel)


Soviet
T1 building = 10
T3 building = 85
T4 building = 90
KW-1 = 145

Alltogether 330 - Starting fuel of 20 = 310 fuel
(T34/76 comes at 255 fuel like PZIV)


I didn't compare to OKW in my post, because there it is much harder to compare. Are we playing a 1vs1 where OKW is dependend on salvage only or are we playing a 2vs2 with an Ost mate who builds the caches while OKW still can salvage. This is a huge difference that really makes any comparison very hard if not obsolete. Your numbers are correct with the exception of the medtruck that costs 25 fuel instead of 35 fuel.

You did not talk about OKW, but for the balance of the KV1, timings against OKW are important as well. Timings in team games are a bit more difficult, but 1) I think we should look at 2v2 at max, everything above is a huge unplannable black box where are factors are probably more important than the fuel cost and 2)unless they try a special strat, teams only tend to build 1-2 caches, and unless both Axis players play OKW, both sides have the possibility to do so. So it can be a rough estimate. Also I would not call them obsolete, as the difference to the first tank is about 20-30 fuel at max, depending on when the cache was build. And the calculation of the fuel for Ostheer is misleading in my opinion, since the only possibility to skip both grenadiers, mortars and a PaK is playing the Osttruppen Commander with Osttruppen callins and the supply drop. For the sake of comparability in 1v1 and 2v2 modes, the building costs should be added.

The KV1 comes at approximately the same time as Axis mediums. If it got better AI, it probably would also be alright to come slightly later than Axis mediums, since it is the better tank in medium-vs-medium warfare.

I do think that the KV1 is slightly UP, I just don't agree with the statement that the timing of the KV1 is the parameter that makes it UP.

The following numbers are assuming you are teching directly for it. In a 1vs1 this won't happen, but you can assume both players will spend around the same number of fuel on side techs (Soviet/OKW), optional T1 and T2 building (Ostheer) or vehicles and light tanks (all). So we can take the numbers as an orientation for timing. In bigger game modes it is a common tactic that one or two players in the team are teching as fast as they can to get a shock unit asap.

Ostheer (BP = Battlephase):
BP1 = 40
BP2 = 90
T3 building = 15
PZIV = 120

Alltogether 265 - Starting fuel of 10 = 255 fuel
(StuG III G comes at 225 fuel)


Soviet
T1 building = 10
T3 building = 85
T4 building = 90
KW-1 = 145

Alltogether 330 - Starting fuel of 20 = 310 fuel
(T34/76 comes at 255 fuel like PZIV)


I didn't compare to OKW in my post, because there it is much harder to compare. Are we playing a 1vs1 where OKW is dependend on salvage only or are we playing a 2vs2 with an Ost mate who builds the caches while OKW still can salvage. This is a huge difference that really makes any comparison very hard if not obsolete. Your numbers are correct with the exception of the medtruck that costs 25 fuel instead of 35 fuel.

what's ur point ? the kv 1 is better than a ost p4 and okw too it can beta them easly

Also a cache is an investment that leads to less MP on the field. It is okay to get your tank out earlier because of it.
Caches are not necessary for any faction and often not build at all in 1v1 and 2v2, so we can happily calculate everything as if they were not there.

what's ur point ? the kv 1 is better than a ost p4 and okw too it can beta them easly

That a KW-1 will beat an Ost-PZV frontally doesn't mean it is better. Don't put them in a bubble. A different example for you: A T34/76 will beat a Ostwind for sure, that does not mean I would pick the T34 over the Ostwind.

KW-1 will be eaten by PAKs and Shreks because of its low AI damage and low mobility. A PanzerIV or a T34/76 is a better investment because of earlier timing, less cost, way better damage and kiting versus infantry and a lot more flexibility/mobility overall. At its current performance KW-1 doesn't deserve to come so late. Moving it from call-in to tech without changing it was a mistake, because the tech skipping call-in was its big bonus. But I don't want to change its timing at all just give it a little more AI and some special utility as stated in my first post. It is an T4 heavy tank after all (although the cheapest and worst one).

That a KW-1 will beat an Ost-PZV frontally doesn't mean it is better. Don't put them in a bubble. A different example for you: A T34/76 will beat a Ostwind for sure, that does not mean I would pick the T34 over the Ostwind.

KW-1 will be eaten by PAKs and Shreks because of its low AI damage and low mobility. A PanzerIV or a T34/76 is a better investment because of earlier timing, less cost, way better damage and kiting versus infantry and a lot more flexibility/mobility overall. At its current performance KW-1 doesn't deserve to come so late. Moving it from call-in to tech without changing it was a mistake, because the tech skipping call-in was its big bonus. But I don't want to change its timing at all just give it a little more AI and some special utility as stated in my first post. It is an T4 heavy tank after all (although the cheapest and worst one).

it has the same aoe of a normal p4 with a bit worse scatter

After playing around with the kv1 for abit, I find them really hard to vet.

I actually believe this is because they cannot dish out damage well at all. Yes they can take damage but seriously, they dont enough damage back.

I checked their veterancy requirement and its the exact same as the normal Churchill tank and being slightly higher than the t34-85.

veterancy

Kv1
vet1:2080, vet2:4160, vet3:8320

Normal Chruchill
vet1:2080, Vet2:4160, vet3:8320

T34-85
vet1:2020, Vet2:4040, vet3:8080

Again, I think its problem is the fact it takes forever to vet up which is mainly done through dishing out damage. Honestly weird its the same vet requirements as the Churchill.

Edit: It has a slightly faster rof of 5.8-5.2 to the t34s 6.1 but yeah, its coaxial machine guns are absolute shit while the hull machine gun has more accuracy (0.4-0.47-0.54 to 0.4-0.45-0.5), only does 4 damage compared to the 76 and 85s 8.

That a KW-1 will beat an Ost-PZV frontally doesn't mean it is better. Don't put them in a bubble. A different example for you: A T34/76 will beat a Ostwind for sure, that does not mean I would pick the T34 over the Ostwind.

KW-1 will be eaten by PAKs and Shreks because of its low AI damage and low mobility. A PanzerIV or a T34/76 is a better investment because of earlier timing, less cost, way better damage and kiting versus infantry and a lot more flexibility/mobility overall. At its current performance KW-1 doesn't deserve to come so late. Moving it from call-in to tech without changing it was a mistake, because the tech skipping call-in was its big bonus. But I don't want to change its timing at all just give it a little more AI and some special utility as stated in my first post. It is an T4 heavy tank after all (although the cheapest and worst one).

KV1 has a better chance to bounce Shreks and packs than almost any allied tank in the game...what do you want from it here? Immunity? Reflect damage back at the enemy?

it has the same aoe of a normal p4 with a bit worse scatter

If you would have read my posts you would have seen that I never asked for a change of the maingun but for a buff of the MGs to T34 level. T34 and PzIV both have higher MG DPS, thats a big part of their infantry shock value. Combined with speed for kiting infantry or attacking an AT-Gun from outside of its fire arc, they are both better at fighting infantry and AT-Guns while still more flexible when it comes to AT (look at my initial post for further informations).

KV1 has a better chance to bounce Shreks and packs than almost any allied tank in the game...what do you want from it here? Immunity? Reflect damage back at the enemy?

Shrek still has 59% penetration chance at max range, PAK has 70%. Thats not even close to your sarcasm of immunity or reflection. So just leave it aside please. Read my initial post, i proposed just small changes without touching health or armour. After reading that you may answer again please. Defending the KW-1 at its current spot is like denying that Ostwind was a lackluster before the recent patch. Its one of the worst tanks in the game.

You did not talk about OKW, but for the balance of the KV1, timings against OKW are important as well.

But since KV1 is doctrinal, you are always free to not choose its commander, specially if it doesnt perform very well vs OKW.

I do agree with the rest of the post though.

The KV1 comes at approximately the same time as Axis mediums. If it got better AI, it probably would also be alright to come slightly later than Axis mediums, since it is the better tank in medium-vs-medium warfare.

I do think that the KV1 is slightly UP, I just don't agree with the statement that the timing of the KV1 is the parameter that makes it UP.

Shrek still has 59% penetration chance at max range, PAK has 70%. Thats not even close to your sarcasm of immunity or reflection. So just leave it aside please. Read my initial post, i proposed just small changes without touching health or armour. After reading that you may answer again please. Defending the KW-1 at its current spot is like denying that Ostwind was a lackluster before the recent patch. Its one of the worst tanks in the game.

So a 30% and 41% chance to bounce dedicated anti tank units. For the sake of comparison, since we have established that the kv is just a more durable t34 (going by the 160 more health AND 0.8 damage modifier) what is the t-34s chance to bounce those dedicated AT units. It sure has to be pretty close to the kv-1 for there not to be any advantages over the 34 right? I'm betting the t34 is going to bounce the pak 20% of the time and Shreks 30% cause if it's anything lower, like say 0% chance to bounce coupled with the significantly less health I think id pick a kv-1 when I can afford one simply die to the undiniably improved durability.
But of course it HAS to be closer than that for you to down play 30 and 40% chance to bounce dedicated counters.

panzer tactician?

Panzer Tactician isnt free nor ubiquitous. It costs a Commander slot.