T34 ram inconsistency

I'm against any changes to ram, it is very powerful if used correctly.
Ram + il2 usually does not ko a heavy tank. The right order to use ram effectively is: mark target on your victim, call il-2 on your victim, ram your victim before red smoke appears. If done correctly, you will kill your target in one combo. One thing people forget is you need vision of your target to set it up. The t70 and sniper is what you need. If your enemy sees your t34 you will most likely fail. You have to sneak your t34 when your opponent is not paying attention.

Now the only op part about the mark vehicle-il2-ram combo is when il2 is used near the edges of the map. However, I do the same thing with fragmentation bombs. Pak stun round+frag bombs or elephant stun+frag bombs will guarantee a kill.

If you think your heavy is about to be rammed don't reverse straight; instead, take a 90 degree turn and reverse

I like vippers skillshot idea. Skillshoots are always great.

My suggestion would be:
Make the ability the vet 1 ability of the unit.
Rename it to "ramming speed"
Ability is now a skill shot increasing speed for duration
Make effects scale with veterancy

wouldnt people just abuse this to get cheesy squad wipes by running them over?

wouldnt people just abuse this to get cheesy squad wipes by running them over?

Not sure crushing seem to have more to do with turn than actual speed.

Even so I guess one could try to disable "crush human" during ability.

Not sure crushing seem to have more to do with turn than actual speed.

Even so I guess one could try to disable "crush human" during ability.

So, 30 tons of steel, running at over 40km/h, can slam into tanks, but can't crush puny humans? No fun here.

My idea - keep heavy crush, but add significant debuffs for passing tru rough terrain - like overheating, dead/wounded driver or gunner/ broken treads, maybe even damage the tank itself as it rams tru piles of logs, pieces оf cover or woods.

That way, it would be very risky idea to use ramming maneuver for infantry hunting, 'cause you never know if there аре AT-gun parked at next corner or shrek squad hiding in FoW.

But it still will be more rewarding as AT-instrument, due to proposed buffs.

So, 30 tons of steel, running at over 40km/h, can slam into tanks, but can't crush puny humans? No fun here.

My idea - keep heavy crush, but add significant debuffs for passing tru rough terrain - like overheating, dead/wounded driver or gunner/ broken treads, maybe even damage the tank itself as it rams tru piles of logs, pieces оf cover or woods.

That way, it would be very risky idea to use ramming maneuver for infantry hunting, 'cause you never know if there аре AT-gun parked at next corner or shrek squad hiding in FoW.

But it still will be more rewarding as AT-instrument, due to proposed buffs.

Side-note: Heavy crush is different from crush humans.
But I think it might be better to remove the crush human during the ability. It might become super cheesy, especially for lone squads at the map edges.
I'm not sure if the rest of your suggestions (crits for breaking heavy cover) are implementable engine-wise.
Also careful with real life arguments. Authenticity in CoH2 is great, but realism often is not. And I think this special case of human crush does not really add to the authenticity considering the big chuck of suspension of disbelief that we need to play CoH2, like extended tank warfare below 40 meter etc.

wouldnt people just abuse this to get cheesy squad wipes by running them over?

Just keep the ability how it is. You can build your unit composition to cater to your ramming strats. Build su-85s or zis with camo to aid your t34. The il-2 strat has a very high skill ceiling to do it consistently. However,The new soviet airborne commander is cheesey as fuk with ram.

I like vippers skillshot idea. Skillshoots are always great.

On paper it looks great, even giving T34s more tool to use them for flanking. The problem is:

-Can it be made in a mod by anyone in the community?
-Wouldn't it be ez to cheese it to crush infantry units?
-I think we still currently have problems when ram impacts support weapons.

I don't know if we can have localised criticals, meaning that frontal side could be linked to main gun crit and rear side to engine damage. So i guess we remove that from the equation as well.


Changes to current ram:

-Remove chances of main gun destroy and heavy engine damage leaving only engine dmg as permanent possible crit.

Now here comes the part that if you increase consistency, you need to give a bit of counterplay and reduce effectiveness of the ability. Throwing some ideas into the mix.

Targeted vehicle:
-Same rules as other snares applies. The vehicle needs to be under 75% for the critical to apply. While the ability deals 160dmg, it's enough for mediums but requires more dmg on premium mediums and heavies.
-Reduce crew shock to 2s from 5s.
-Unit get's a 50% speed and turn debuff for 10s. Main gun is disabled for 10s.
This will always apply whether the ram is effective or not.


T34:
-Increase self damage received to 320dmg. Damage done to enemy vehicle remains the same at 160dmg.
-Option A: Crew shock time increased to 30s. It only receives engine damage and main gun destroyed.
-Option B: Crew shock time increased to 10s. It only receives heavy engine damage.
-Can't be used with any type of engine damage.

On paper it looks great, even giving T34s more tool to use them for flanking. The problem is:

-Can it be made in a mod by anyone in the community?
-Wouldn't it be ez to cheese it to crush infantry units?
-I think we still currently have problems when ram impacts support weapons.

I don't know if we can have localised criticals, meaning that frontal side could be linked to main gun crit and rear side to engine damage. So i guess we remove that from the equation as well.


Changes to current ram:

-Remove chances of main gun destroy and heavy engine damage leaving only engine dmg as permanent possible crit.

Now here comes the part that if you increase consistency, you need to give a bit of counterplay and reduce effectiveness of the ability. Throwing some ideas into the mix.

Targeted vehicle:
-Same rules as other snares applies. The vehicle needs to be under 75% for the critical to apply. While the ability deals 160dmg, it's enough for mediums but requires more dmg on premium mediums and heavies.
-Reduce crew shock to 2s from 5s.
-Unit get's a 50% speed and turn debuff for 10s. Main gun is disabled for 10s.
This will always apply whether the ram is effective or not.


T34:
-Increase self damage received to 320dmg. Damage done to enemy vehicle remains the same at 160dmg.
-Option A: Crew shock time increased to 30s. It only receives engine damage and main gun destroyed.
-Option B: Crew shock time increased to 10s. It only receives heavy engine damage.
-Can't be used with any type of engine damage.

The 75% hp thing is way too restrictive. I'm not a fan of getting rid of the 5 second stun. If you want to get rid of the cheese make airstrikes land in the same amount of time regardless of where you call it in. At the edges of the map, airstrikes can land as soon as 6 seconds. I think it would be fair to change it to land 8 seconds globally after you call it in.

Side-note: Heavy crush is different from crush humans.
But I think it might be better to remove the crush human during the ability. It might become super cheesy, especially for lone squads at the map edges.
I'm not sure if the rest of your suggestions (crits for breaking heavy cover) are implementable engine-wise.
Also careful with real life arguments. Authenticity in CoH2 is great, but realism often is not. And I think this special case of human crush does not really add to the authenticity considering the big chuck of suspension of disbelief that we need to play CoH2, like extended tank warfare below 40 meter etc.

Sorry, not really familiar with engine, just started tinkering with map maker last week. Would be great if someone explained differences in crush type.

As for real-life argument... It was not about "real-life tanks could act as siege ram hurr-durr", but more about more FUN and less FRUSTRATION for both user and recivier.

Also, some thoughts on effects and damage of ramming maneuver
Quite sure, that even small chanses of gun damage got to go, it would turn ramming into RNG-fest. Chance should be either significantly increased (then it will became OP), or removed completely.
But I would say, that it should be guaranted engine crit no matter how much damage it does - other way it will be outclassed by snares by both accesability and price.
Or, if possible, make it such way that ability does more damage the less HP t34 have on moment of impact - that way it will be typical high risk-high reward situation.

The 75% hp thing is way too restrictive. I'm not a fan of getting rid of the 5 second stun. If you want to get rid of the cheese make airstrikes land in the same amount of time regardless of where you call it in. At the edges of the map, airstrikes can land as soon as 6 seconds. I think it would be fair to change it to land 8 seconds globally after you call it in.

OR you could start by calling it ahead of time so when the ram hit, the crew + slow movement of the vehicle won't let it escape.
It would be similar to how button on Guards work now compared to how it used to be.

Also reminder that calculations for crits are done after damage is applied if i'm not mistaken.

OR you could start by calling it ahead of time so when the ram hit, the crew + slow movement of the vehicle won't let it escape.
It would be similar to how button on Guards work now compared to how it used to be.

Also reminder that calculations for crits are done after damage is applied if i'm not mistaken.

That takes a lot of skill and resources to do. If you are against that then we need to get rid of panzer tactician and spotting scopes. The combo is near useless vs Panthers, and good players don't let t34s get near their elephants or jagtigers. High risk should get high rewards.

On paper it looks great, even giving T34s more tool to use them for flanking. The problem is:

-Can it be made in a mod by anyone in the community?
-Wouldn't it be ez to cheese it to crush infantry units?
-I think we still currently have problems when ram impacts support weapons.

I don't know if we can have localised criticals, meaning that frontal side could be linked to main gun crit and rear side to engine damage. So i guess we remove that from the equation as well.


Changes to current ram:

-Remove chances of main gun destroy and heavy engine damage leaving only engine dmg as permanent possible crit.

Now here comes the part that if you increase consistency, you need to give a bit of counterplay and reduce effectiveness of the ability. Throwing some ideas into the mix.

Targeted vehicle:
-Same rules as other snares applies. The vehicle needs to be under 75% for the critical to apply. While the ability deals 160dmg, it's enough for mediums but requires more dmg on premium mediums and heavies.
-Reduce crew shock to 2s from 5s.
-Unit get's a 50% speed and turn debuff for 10s. Main gun is disabled for 10s.
This will always apply whether the ram is effective or not.


T34:
-Increase self damage received to 320dmg. Damage done to enemy vehicle remains the same at 160dmg.
-Option A: Crew shock time increased to 30s. It only receives engine damage and main gun destroyed.
-Option B: Crew shock time increased to 10s. It only receives heavy engine damage.
-Can't be used with any type of engine damage.

Not every ability has to be used every engagement every game.
Half health your own tank to engine damage theirs souls fucking awful.
It's fine as it is now-not something that is used as an easy way to secure a kill, but a martyr type ability that is only used when it's dire.

Not every ability has to be used every engagement every game.
Half health your own tank to engine damage theirs souls fucking awful.
It's fine as it is now-not something that is used as an easy way to secure a kill, but a martyr type ability that is only used when it's dire.

Besides removing the small chances for main gun and heavy engine and fixing some bugs, i think the ability is somehow fine.

It's just that the ability feels out of place, considering how the game has been changed to make things work in less cheesy ways.

The purpose of giving it a higher self damage, is because an immobilised vehicle is for all that matters a dead vehicle anyway.

Besides removing the small chances for main gun and heavy engine and fixing some bugs, i think the ability is somehow fine.

It's just that the ability feels out of place, considering how the game has been changed to make things work in less cheesy ways.

The purpose of giving it a higher self damage, is because an immobilised vehicle is for all that matters a dead vehicle anyway.

I use ram fairly often considering.
Its not necessarily a dead vehicle, making it a 2 shot will make it one though. Generally the tank has already taken a shot or 2 of damage and is immobilized with no gun, if you CAN salvage it it should absolutely be viable. If it's going to be guaranteed dead it might as well 90% damage the target vehicle because it would then be bar none the most expensive snare in the game.

If ram IS going to get changed, it's effects should be based on what it is Ramming, note we already have this with okw aimed shot
Lights could probably be immobilized or a long ass crew sbock
Mediums could be a stun and engine damage
Assault guns break the gun
Heavy tanks maybe a stun at most

You can still salvage a t34 after ramming specially if you have self repair.

Ram...selfrepair

Making it 320 damage surly will kill it.

The dmg i listed could be lower down to 160/240 is that i consider that an immobilise and main gun destroy vehicle is for all purposes a dead tank, unless you use ram in a defensive way near your base. If you use ram as a dire last option, it won't matter if you get your tank destroyed on impact or seconds later.
So i just moved the self critical received to dmg.

Outside of using self repair, no engineer is gonna survive recovering the tank nor even with self repair you are gonna be able to recover if it's on the middle of the map.

I'm not sure how to put it, it's just that the ability is following the stereotypical of Soviet suicide charge and goes against the whole unit preservation. It's the same as when Penal had a satchel which would blast half their own squad.

At the end of the day i'll repeat what i said before: outside of bugfixing and removing fringe cases, i wouldn't change how it works.
BUT if you make it more consistent (check title), you need to give some counterplay to it. Point and click abilities should not be strong (hence why i think in CoH3, skillplanes should all be aimed strafing runs).

Are the stats different between T-34/76 and T-34/85? Sometimes I feel like the 76 does more damage and has a higher chance for crtis.