How come Axis infantry get all the snares?

What an sence off entitlement. You think penals are spammable? Circle strafing is cheese now? Pgrens should be unmatched in their at role because of the price?

Ost already got survivabilty via commanders a while back. Now prgens and ostwind recieved big buffs. Making it al lot easier to with lights.
Ost has the suberp at mine. Ost have very strong handheld AT kept in check by low hp and on 1 unit type. Ost has stun/snare for their at gun. Axis tanks have or get more armour and hp with vet non doc then allies can. And you complain about the sherman?

Just place more then one teller mine in a game. Its 2 clicks. Nothing micro intesive about that. With at satchal you either need to snare it before hand or setup an ambush. wich is more/as micro intensive because you always need other units to achieve this.

The grass isent always greener on the other side.

Hi Mr.Grass In 1v1 ost is considered just much weaker than okw.

Tellers are not the answer against a player that doesn't commit the sin of overextending. Placing a teller is not micro intensive but making your opponent hit it with a light vehicle is a totally different thing. Also it is easy to lose 50 munitions because decent players suspect tellers and invest in a sweeper.

Ost needs munitions for healing, panserfausts and those shrecks. Planting a teller means that again you are behind in infantry power race (e.g. no flame on pios). At the same time penals can use the sstchrl when they want not before they need it.

Don't forget forget that allies have better mines, 30 muni universal mine is just more flexible to use and then you just kill with ptrs, satchels or any form if at. Also usf ac has the best anti tank mines in the game and is not doctrinal. They also have a bazooka inside and a non doc smoke on the same vehicle, plus crew repairs just in case, oh and crit repairs.

Don't you see how many more abilities there are on allied units compared to ostheer (I insist once again not OKW).

I just hate for the last 10 years how everybody keeps repeating this nonsesnse about the mighty teller. Just use sweepers. Players simply want to win the game too quickly and keep attacking instead of learnig where to stop and wait for the sweeper.

Panzergrens are built earlier but lost medkits. They got some vehicle proximity aura. Ost has still 4 man squads that are completely crap on the move and without cover.

The stun an a pak or stug used to be a game changer a few years ago. Now it's no longer that good. Actually usf at gun has much better abilities. You seem to forget about ap rounds on jackson. Also shermans have stock smoke that slows vehicles down for 5 seconds.

And I do believe that circlestrafing a unit making it unable to stand still to shoot is cheese. Especially when allies made sure it cannot be done against their own squads. Pzgren are supposed to be elite tank destroyer inf. They are too squishy to perform their role.

Not much point in super armour if you can't repair vehicles as quickly as your opponents. Still UK tanks or Sov are armour beasts.

What a load of biased bs holy shit

load of crap

tl;dr for anyone who doesn't want to get infected with brain rot:
-Counterplay is not a valid option
-Mines that go off everything are better against vehicles then mines that go off vehicles exclusively
-2nd muni lightest faction in game is somehow muni starved at all times
-super OP ost abilities are no longer super OP and that's a problem
-using micro in armor engagements should not be allowed/possible

Just reading this thread makes you realize why this game will never be balanced. Almost everyone wants their cookie for their preferred faction at all costs. Anyone who doesn't want that gets hunted down and gutted like a fish by the rest lol.

Guys - if it's lots of crap how come I keep having almost 100% matches vs OKW? Ppl just don't want to play ostheer. One of the reason is people who ignore all logical arguments. The only ost infantry unit that has sensible AT weapon can be cheesy crushed circlestrafed by a vehicle. It is also very expensive and can really die like a fly compared to allied counterparts. Where is your logic?

Whan it comes to brains - Katitof why don't you even try to understand simpe facts?

TO your points:

1. I never wrote that counter play isn't a valid option. It is - just circlestrafing supposedly elite panzerkiller squad is not (especially if you can't do it to your opponent's squads).
2. Yes mines that go off at everything can be better in various situations - if your opponent has a sweeper it is better to place two mines in two different parts of the map for almost the same price than one to be discovered. You lose then more munitions than your opponent who invested in a sweeper. Sweeper stays on your opponent's unit. You just wasted 50 munitions. The light vehicle is still a threat.
3. It's not the lightest at the beginning. You have healing, fausts, tellers, and flamepio. Then flamehalftrack and pzrecks.
4. You mean OP satchels????
5. Micro should be used and as ost you need to use it. Very often as allies you just charge with infantry from different angles and its done. Or just wait for t70. If you are not too careless you won't hit a teller or even if you do you'll inflict enough manpowerbleed to let you infantry dominate.

Just reading this thread makes you realize why this game will never be balanced. Almost everyone wants their cookie for their preferred faction at all costs. Anyone who doesn't want that gets hunted down and gutted like a fish by the rest lol.

The funny thing is I play USF and UK now and in 1v1 I feel sorry for ost. That's why I'm writing this. Allies play against two factions only, which makes it much easier than playing against 3 factions. Why do they insist that they should play just against OKW. I'd rather play against two powerful factions than one powerful and one where your opponent must be like 3 times better than you.

Coming back to the tread - satchels should be given as snares for ost to make the game more even in 1v1.

When Satchels are not useable..because only noobs will get a satchels at their tanks..why not give them axis factions too? They have no relevanz and are useless...so axis can have it...right?

Pios get satchels with the new commander lol.

Pios get satchels with the new commander lol.

True - but I thought they are just demolition - not anti vehicle.

Tellers are not the answer against a player that doesn't commit the sin of overextending.

AT satchels are not the answer against a player that doesn't commit the sin of overextending.

AT satchels are not the answer against a player that doesn't commit the sin of overextending.

True, but now you can overextend and just crush pzrgrens. You shouldn't be allowed to do that because that's a sin And holy mother Russia doesn't let penals be treated this way.

True, but now you can overextend and just crush pzrgrens. You shouldn't be allowed to do that because that's a sin And holy mother Russia doesn't let penals be treated this way.

Axis are perfectly capable of crushing triple zook rangers in return

Or zook paratroopers

Or even Zook REs

Or Piat Infantry sections

Or Piat commandos

My two cents:
I'm against Satchels for standard OST. Apart from a super specialized Assault Grenadier opening, OST has snares on literally every mainline unit. Satchels would only be there to damage tanks that break into your frontline, and OST does not need that, just like OKW and USF don't need it.
soviets has Satchels to provide some snares for Soviet T1 builds, because otherwise they would have literally none, even less than the old UKF.
Satchels usually don't help you against light vehicles, because those are too mobile to get captured by your Penal squad. Satchels are good to attack very slow tanks, tanks heavily out of position or unsupported or that got snared already by another source. OST has a good AT gun, they have a StuG and a Panther. I don't know why they should need another AT tool. Please provide an explanation what exactly OST is lacking compared to all the other factions that they desperately need a satchel.

Apart from that:
The teller mine is NOT the counterpart to the satchel. OST has specialized mines for hihger cost. More risk, more reward. Mines are always luck based, even on high level games you don't know if your bait works or not.
If you rely on Pgrens as your sole AT to fight off medium tanks upwards, you deserve to lose the match. They're mobile support and have other issues, but nevertheless they should not be strong enough to completely control enemy mediums. Just like bazoolas and Piats should not are are not able to do that, even if they're slightly cheaper

Also:
The point seems to be that it would be too easy to just drive straight into the frontline without getting damaged, since satchels are the only snares that do engine damage without preconditions. Fausts and AT nades need the vehicle to be damaged first.
Yet, all other factions seem to be perfectly fine without a satchel, although they only have the regular snare.

If you want to maintain the argument, please indicate which other units from OKW, USF and UKF (and cons need satchels as well, otherwise SOV T2 builds would have only the regular snare) should receive satchels.

Please keep in mind that satchels for OST would mean that the squad should lose about 1/3 of the AI capability (or 1/4 for OST would be fine, since their squads are worse for pushing up a tank due to lower squad size). And that the upgrade would need to cost munitions. Also grenadiers should then lose their Panzerfaust. Because this is indeed the true cost of going with Penals.

Axis are perfectly capable of crushing triple zook rangers in return

Or zook paratroopers

Or even Zook REs

Or Piat Infantry sections

Or Piat commandos

Well, YES and NO, it is more complicated:

U can equip any unit with a piat or bazooka. When you give a bazooka to, say, three separate squads they cover each other and it is impossible to do such things. Circling one squad means another will shoot. They also seem to (correct me if I'm wrong here) to shoot bazookas almost on the move - you can't make them run around and not being able to aim like you can with panzershrecked panzergrens, or you can to a less extend. They ara also 4 to 6 six man squads and are much more difficult to wipe or when you do wipe say echelons they are cheaper to build back. With ostheer, on the other hand, you can equip only one type of unit with 2 panzershrecks, not one. You lose a lot of antyinf capabilities (USF and UK, me included, like to equip bazookas and piats on the units that will make them lose as little antyinfantry capabilities as possible). Basically with panzergrens shreck team you get theoretically powerful antytank squad but in reality if a player kites it they will be dead quickly. The funny thing is that it is exactly why penals got satchels imo. They, like ost, can equip ptrs on penals and other units can get them only through doctrine (cons). Of course, there are also guards and partisans with shreck. Guards have button and partisans at grenades. There are also doctine cons volley grenades. So Soviets actually are quite potent in infantry anti tank department. Unlike ost unfortunately.

My two cents:
I'm against Satchels for standard OST. Apart from a super specialized Assault Grenadier opening, OST has snares on literally every mainline unit. Satchels would only be there to damage tanks that break into your frontline, and OST does not need that, just like OKW and USF don't need it.
soviets has Satchels to provide some snares for Soviet T1 builds, because otherwise they would have literally none, even less than the old UKF.
Satchels usually don't help you against light vehicles, because those are too mobile to get captured by your Penal squad. Satchels are good to attack very slow tanks, tanks heavily out of position or unsupported or that got snared already by another source. OST has a good AT gun, they have a StuG and a Panther. I don't know why they should need another AT tool. Please provide an explanation what exactly OST is lacking compared to all the other factions that they desperately need a satchel.

Apart from that:
The teller mine is NOT the counterpart to the satchel. OST has specialized mines for hihger cost. More risk, more reward. Mines are always luck based, even on high level games you don't know if your bait works or not.
If you rely on Pgrens as your sole AT to fight off medium tanks upwards, you deserve to lose the match. They're mobile support and have other issues, but nevertheless they should not be strong enough to completely control enemy mediums. Just like bazoolas and Piats should not are are not able to do that, even if they're slightly cheaper

Generally I agree. My point would be to possibly make tanks engagement against panzergrens look more realistic. The should trade damage from some distance and not cheesy circlestrafing and making them "dance" and not being able to shoot a shreck. Looking at my games and replays they can be rushed by a vehicle too often - they should be a counter to a vehicle and not its circlestrafing prey. If they get annihilated by a sherman HE round and mg from some distance, trading blows, it is perfectly fine. A satchel could be given to them just to prevent such, imo, unnatural situations. If a tank closes on them to a distance of 5 it should be punished. After all they are elite anti tank inf.

Well, YES and NO, it is more complicated:

U can equip any unit with a piat or bazooka. When you give a bazooka to, say, three separate squads they cover each other and it is impossible to do such things. Circling one squad means another will shoot. They also seem to (correct me if I'm wrong here) to shoot bazookas almost on the move - you can't make them run around and not being able to aim like you can with panzershrecked panzergrens, or you can to a less extend. They ara also 4 to 6 six man squads and are much more difficult to wipe or when you do wipe say echelons they are cheaper to build back. With ostheer, on the other hand, you can equip only one type of unit with 2 panzershrecks, not one. You lose a lot of antyinf capabilities (USF and UK, me included, like to equip bazookas and piats on the units that will make them lose as little antyinfantry capabilities as possible). Basically with panzergrens shreck team you get theoretically powerful antytank squad but in reality if a player kites it they will be dead quickly. The funny thing is that it is exactly why penals got satchels imo. They, like ost, can equip ptrs on penals and other units can get them only through doctrine (cons). Of course, there are also guards and partisans with shreck. Guards have button and partisans at grenades. There are also doctine cons volley grenades. So Soviets actually are quite potent in infantry anti tank department. Unlike ost unfortunately.

I do agree that Pgrens are not the best AT squad. They have very high reward, but also very high risk. Standard procedure should therefore be that they run in from the second line to get the shots off, something that other units don't need to do.
But:
They have very good penetration and alpha damage compared to bazookas and piats. And PTRS rifles are horrible for everything above light vehicles. They have low alpha damage (80) and usually bounce many shots. Your PTRS squads mandatorily need green cover, and even then they will cost you MP. Pgrens can run in, shoot and go back due to their alpha damage.
Penals, Guards and cons all suffer from the low damage long range AT. So there are Schreck Partisans left. But if they are considered good AT, then Schreck Sturmpios are also good AT, since they are really similar. Obviously, I don't need to comment further on that

Also:
The point seems to be that it would be too easy to just drive straight into the frontline without getting damaged, since satchels are the only snares that do engine damage without preconditions. Fausts and AT nades need the vehicle to be damaged first.
Yet, all other factions seem to be perfectly fine without a satchel, although they only have the regular snare.

If you want to maintain the argument, please indicate which other units from OKW, USF and UKF (and cons need satchels as well, otherwise SOV T2 builds would have only the regular snare) should receive satchels.

Please keep in mind that satchels for OST would mean that the squad should lose about 1/3 of the AI capability (or 1/4 for OST would be fine, since their squads are worse for pushing up a tank due to lower squad size). And that the upgrade would need to cost munitions. Also grenadiers should then lose their Panzerfaust. Because this is indeed the true cost of going with Penals.

I agree with the beginning - tanks and other vehicles should be just cautious when approaching panzergrens with shrecks or any anty tank infantry. They should look for some distance and deal dmgh to such squads from it. Pushing head on in the hope of making them shoot one volley, maybe half a volley, and then make them dance should not be valid tactics.

I wouldn't give satchels to any other infantry apart from ptrs cons and shreck grens. UKF and USF are in a different boat. They have racks to pick AT weapons from. They can take ONE AT weapon each squad and cover one another or just blob with it. They can decide if they equip two or one or sometimes three anti tank weapons. It gives them lots of valid strategic possibilities: Do I want to have a strong 3 bazooka squad of rangers (I think they can have 3?)? Do I prefer to have a snare and bazooka/s on riflemen?, or maybe mix a bazooka and lmg. That is enough to deter rushing vehicles in the middle of them. (I know it may make some UKF USF players unhappy but they keep building bren/lms infantry squads and are happy to win infantry engagements forgetting that tanks will arrive. Then some seem to be unhappy that they have no counters, but that is another story). The possiblility I would analyse is sturmpios but because OKW is really strong and they have puppchens, it is probably not neccessary as puppchens can retreat and cap points and cloak and are more like infantry AT than a cannon to me. If they nerf puppchen I would think of some satchel for them.

Alternative approach could be satchel pios for ost or other factions as well. If they build say medium tanks tier it ciould be a reward pios/sappers/echelons get. It could be a cool thing as sappers should have access to serious explosives. They could punish those silly engagemnts of tanks dancing next to each other.

Removing satchels and giving AT infantry regular snare could be an option but it would kill a cool satchel idea and yet another dimension to the game. I feel that generally satchels should prevent cheese unnatural tactics of tanks driving in the middle of groups of units.

I do agree that Pgrens are not the best AT squad. They have very high reward, but also very high risk. Standard procedure should therefore be that they run in from the second line to get the shots off, something that other units don't need to do.
But:
They have very good penetration and alpha damage compared to bazookas and piats. And PTRS rifles are horrible for everything above light vehicles. They have low alpha damage (80) and usually bounce many shots. Your PTRS squads mandatorily need green cover, and even then they will cost you MP. Pgrens can run in, shoot and go back due to their alpha damage.
Penals, Guards and cons all suffer from the low damage long range AT. So there are Schreck Partisans left. But if they are considered good AT, then Schreck Sturmpios are also good AT, since they are really similar. Obviously, I don't need to comment further on that

Evertyhing you wrote is agreed 100%. Panzergrens are sort of high wipe risk but also good damage dealing squad. They can be wiped with packhowie, mortars, mortar tanks, he sherman or simply pershing etc. I think tank should damage them but not make them, "dance". For example, a pin from AA halftrack is fine, even wipes from indirect or HE fire. The thing to be remembered though iot the fact that bazookas and ptrs shoor more often. Because of it they deal more consisten dmg. here you have like either significant dmg or no damage at all. Probably that's why circlestrafing is so effective against them by even light vehicles. One more thing though, penals and guards hold their own against infatry and panzergrens with shrecks don't so there is the tradeoff.

Okay, now I your point is way clearer to me, it was a bit obscure for me what you actually wanted to say before.

One thing to keep in mind though: While PIAT, Bazooka and Schrecks are priced to their performance, Allies need to pay extra to unlock. So they should get a bit extra due to it both in resources and in opportunity cost, since you don't have the option to get them quickly if you'd need them. So the gain for Allies is the ability to chose the squad to equip.

Panzergrenadiere become a support unit from the point they get Panzerschrecks, and a rather expensive one. They will be pushed around if they are caught alone, but in conjungtion with Grenadiere or any other snare unit (Volks in Teamgames) they are quite potent. Even a medium tank needs to retreat, since you usually shouldn't risk a second volley. Now Schrecks can of course miss as well, but that is a damage potential that you need to calculate with. So if you fail at pushing them correctly or slightly misjudge the situation, your tank is at high risk if you can't drop the Pgrens quickly. Catching a squad out of position should be punished, just Pgrens allow you to punish an overextending vehicle more than the PaK or any other AT unit could in the early-midgame until you get a medium tank. I think their biggest problem is that they spend too much time retreating an reinforcing, since a three man Pgren is already a bit risky as you could drop a Schreck for the enemy, and at 2 models they should really reinforce to not risk a random whipe. Pgrens are one of very few (or maybe even the only one?) squad that have half of the models equipped with droppable weapons.

To sum it up:
I think Panzergrenadiere are not the best AT unit in the game when judged by cost/performance, but I don't think that a satchel will solve that. I'm also not sure how well it would be to have a squad that is good and both long range and short range AT. All other units usually have only a certain range where they are cost effective. All in all, I think they should be slightly cheaper to reinforce or something, especially if they carry Schrecks. Or gain an RA bonus, really not sure.
The only time where they really perfectly is in a super mobile OST build with Assault Grenadiers and a 222.

Okay, now I your point is way clearer to me, it was a bit obscure for me what you actually wanted to say before.

One thing to keep in mind though: While PIAT, Bazooka and Schrecks are priced to their performance, Allies need to pay extra to unlock. So they should get a bit extra due to it both in resources and in opportunity cost, since you don't have the option to get them quickly if you'd need them. So the gain for Allies is the ability to chose the squad to equip.

Panzergrenadiere become a support unit from the point they get Panzerschrecks, and a rather expensive one. They will be pushed around if they are caught alone, but in conjungtion with Grenadiere or any other snare unit (Volks in Teamgames) they are quite potent. Even a medium tank needs to retreat, since you usually shouldn't risk a second volley. Now Schrecks can of course miss as well, but that is a damage potential that you need to calculate with. So if you fail at pushing them correctly or slightly misjudge the situation, your tank is at high risk if you can't drop the Pgrens quickly. Catching a squad out of position should be punished, just Pgrens allow you to punish an overextending vehicle more than the PaK or any other AT unit could in the early-midgame until you get a medium tank. I think their biggest problem is that they spend too much time retreating an reinforcing, since a three man Pgren is already a bit risky as you could drop a Schreck for the enemy, and at 2 models they should really reinforce to not risk a random whipe. Pgrens are one of very few (or maybe even the only one?) squad that have half of the models equipped with droppable weapons.

To sum it up:
I think Panzergrenadiere are not the best AT unit in the game when judged by cost/performance, but I don't think that a satchel will solve that. I'm also not sure how well it would be to have a squad that is good and both long range and short range AT. All other units usually have only a certain range where they are cost effective. All in all, I think they should be slightly cheaper to reinforce or something, especially if they carry Schrecks. Or gain an RA bonus, really not sure.
The only time where they really perfectly is in a super mobile OST build with Assault Grenadiers and a 222.

Again agreed 99%. I really really think they should be supported with a faust gren and pak. They should also be supported with anty infantry units such as mgs and maybe no panzershreck grens. And here starts the problem. It's like a house of cards contrary to other factions. You remove one and it all falls down. Too many units are too dependent on one another and too fragile at the same time. With ost it's too easy to dismantle the whole composition in 1v1. So my conclusion is to help them with something that will stop those even light vehicle rushes that make them dance.