So are they really nerfing the Churchill Tank?

Jump back to quoted post19 Jul 2019, 09:09 AMullumulu

Why do u calc with the far range accu? Why not mid and near? this church istn buid for staying all the time at far range and wait to killed by stug. mostly it is easy to come in close range with it....unless you are not bad at playing.

Jump back to quoted post19 Jul 2019, 09:47 AMStug life

well even if u flank it's no different from fighting a p4 with 1400 hp

btw ur bias is slipping out kat, i didn't know panther beats AT infantry AT guns and heavy tanks

Jump back to quoted post19 Jul 2019, 11:16 AMHannibal

I thibk it should be clear that the theoretical calculation does not account for scatter and is therefore somewhat flawed, but it is a way better and more comparable model thean just crying 'XYZ OP!'.

Testing is better if you have a sufficient sample size, and the theoretical calculation can give you an idea of how big your sample size needs to be to get reliable results.

Jump back to quoted post19 Jul 2019, 11:33 AMJibberJabberJobber

It's more than somewhat flawed, to the point it causes even more confusion.

In my ingame test the shots that hit & bounced the Stug were 30,88%, which is reasonably close to the 29,17% the Churchill statistically has to bounce it. -> Good!

Meanwhile, 15% of the ingame shots missed, which is far better than the 57,5% chance to miss without accounting for scatter would suggest. -> Bad!

I think we can agree in this case my small sample size gives far more accurate results than comparing the two statistically while ignoring scatter.

Jump back to quoted post19 Jul 2019, 11:22 AMKatitof

You didn't knew that, because you probably don't know how to micro panther to get most out of its MGs vs infantry. And yes, it can beat AT infantry and AT guns if there is no mainline with a snare waiting for it, it just gets behind ATG and pushes AT inf while MGs do the work.

I won't even address the fact that you didn't knew a panther can beat heavy tanks despite it being specifically balanced for that single purpose.

Jump back to quoted post19 Jul 2019, 11:40 AMSeductiveCardbordBox

If you wanted a side to side comparison, testing is faster than calculating scatter. I can sadly do neither from my phone, and would need to do a butt ton of work to estimate scatter accurately even with the in game stats.

But that's not what my post was.

I posted it purely in the context of, on paper discounting scatter, the StuG and MK VII take similar shot counts to kill each other. Which is a vague point I did not originally bring up.

Somebody said it was BS and I laid out the numbers as to why it is not.

That was it. That was the whole context of my post. The only conclusion I put out about it was that a pair of StuG, who cannot miss so scatter doesn't matter, are ample to counter a Churchill. Which they are.

Jump back to quoted post19 Jul 2019, 11:51 AMStug life

can't inf just park behind cover, the damage is from the mg after all even yellow cover cut it by half already ? And if we got by flanking wouldn't that be pretty much universal

what u said was true, with high armor and pen it could easily deal with heavy tank, now that it has much less armor the Pershing beats it, same for is 2, obv if u stay at range u can win but u said panther engaging not constantly kiting

BTW since u say it beats AT infantry i tested it, put 2 RE with PIAT vs a panther in open field first, and they won with 3 man remaining, while in cover they lost only 2 man, so stop with the meme that panther AI is the best, and panther has 0.5 moving accuracy so the mgs get half the dps while moving while the infantry will get the job done especially if it snares it while u try to move them in like u said

Jump back to quoted post19 Jul 2019, 11:58 AMKatitof

Not if you're up close and pushing. Below range 10 accuracy penalty against cover is negated.


Except pershing doesn't beat it unless vetted and bit lucky.
Engaging doesn't mean ramming your unit against opposing unit, it means participating in combat against it, how well its positioned during engagement is 100% up to your ability.
Kiting is also form of engagement, the one that benefits you while leaving opponent at disadvantage.


Please stop with vacuum bullshit tests that couldn't be further from the reality of actual skirmish.
That kind of situation will never happen in game, unless you'll get matched up in 1v1 against ullu, which would be impossible as its impossible to match 2 axis factions against each other.

Jump back to quoted post19 Jul 2019, 11:40 AMSeductiveCardbordBox

I posted it purely in the context of, on paper discounting scatter, the StuG and MK VII take similar shot counts to kill each other. Which is a vague point I did not originally bring up.

Somebody said it was BS and I laid out the numbers as to why it is not.

That was it. That was the whole context of my post. The only conclusion I put out about it was that a pair of StuG, who cannot miss so scatter doesn't matter, are ample to counter a Churchill. Which they are.

Jump back to quoted post19 Jul 2019, 12:07 PMStug life

ok what would be a realistic situation ? That the panther has perfect micro and manually avoid piat shoots ? if there are 2 squad with piat vs a panther and equal micro is put in the at inf wins, the panther mgs have only 35 range, and while moving they have half their dps, leaving aside the possibility of showing the rear to the other squad while u try to ram the other

BTW on the argument of kiting then all allied TDs have no counter ? i mean they are fast and have 60 range they can beat everything by ur logic

Jump back to quoted post19 Jul 2019, 12:12 PMKatitof

I've said it already.
Pushing up close while pintle does the job when no snaring inf is around.
If there are 2 and you don't have specifically AI tank or massive damage sponge, you'll lose.


Only if you're insisting on engaging tank destroyers with the one single thing they are supposed to kill easily.

Jump back to quoted post19 Jul 2019, 11:33 AMJibberJabberJobber

It's more than somewhat flawed, to the point the results are close to useless.

In my ingame test the shots that hit & bounced the Stug were 30,88%, which is reasonably close to the 29,17% the Churchill statistically has to bounce it. -> Good!

Meanwhile, 15% of the ingame shots missed, which is far better than the 57,5% chance to miss without accounting for scatter would suggest. -> Bad!

I think we can agree in this case my small sample size gives far more accurate results than comparing the two statistically while ignoring scatter as a factor.

Jump back to quoted post19 Jul 2019, 12:24 PMHannibal

Indeed, the good measurement accurary on the pen chances suggests that the real miss and scatter-hit chances are fairly accurate as well.
While the test will always work out in favor of the Churchill (since StuG always hits), I did not think that it would be that severe, especially since the StuGs model is not that big.

Jump back to quoted post19 Jul 2019, 12:25 PMJibberJabberJobber

It surprised me too.

I guess it's partly because the Churchill has decent scatter. I forgot how it works exactly, but the Churchill's vertical scatter is 6, while most generalist tanks have around 6,5-7,5. Besides that it has a scatter offset of 0,3, which means the scatter area is displaced 30% further, while most generalist tanks have a scatter offset of only 0,25.

Jump back to quoted post19 Jul 2019, 13:18 PMHannibal

It also depends how the scatter values are calculated, so basically if the game just takes a random number in between the scatter boundaries (so each spot in the possible scatter area gets hit with equal probability) or if there is a normalized distribution around the center. We (or at least I) don't know enough about scatter to be able to calculate it

Jump back to quoted post19 Jul 2019, 13:39 PMVipper

You can check the scatter mechanics here:

https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/231279/a-guide-to-d-p-s-basics#latest

What make scatter calculation difficult is the target's "hitbox" and the angle the shot is fired from.

Bottom line here is the a Churchill will clearly beat a Stug -G at range 40.

Jump back to quoted post19 Jul 2019, 18:17 PMachpawel

Churchill is OP. With equal support the Brits have much higher chances of winning engagements in 1v1 against axis. IMO it's due to those extra abilities such as smoke repairs, grenades etc. U can just throw your sappers with at into main line and push. Add all brit artillery options and IS with lmgs and paks dont stand a chance. Panthers dont deal enough dmg to them to take them out fast enough to stop the push.

Jump back to quoted post19 Jul 2019, 18:26 PMKatitof

That's why you're not supposed to sit on 1 panther, but build stugs.
As far as KRUPP STAHL goes, panther isn't answer to everything.
L2P.