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Echelon Grenades

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22 Jun 2019, 02:06 AM
#121
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358



There's nothing to solve. This is now 6 pages for an upgrade that barely does anything unless something is garrisoned. This is now 6 pages discussing an upgrade because someone is annoyed to micro their units. This is a non-issue.


It DOES solve the thing, because RIFLE NADES were implemented to FIGHT OFF GRRISONS (green cover is a colateral feature).
If it can reliably damage infantry in garrison/cover you are forced to leave it and voila! your investment was worth.

Damage =/= utility

Understand that first and then post your opinions on how to solve the problem rather than making it harder for those who want it fine.
22 Jun 2019, 02:14 AM
#122
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

Moving it to Rifle Company does solve the problem by diluting it into another commander that is less prone to spam the unit that can get it.

In Urban Assault you can forego Riflemen completely and spam REs with rifle grenades, get your officers to fill in the gaps and then get Rangers. You wouldn’t have the Rangers in Rifle Company, so this strategy would be less effective.

HOWEVER! I think what you said about reworking the ability is valid.

I think the easiest way to rework the ability it to make it identical to Grenadier rifle grenades. REs gain the ability to shoot rifle grenades just like Grenadiers. No upgrade, just a passive new ability. It would be a substantial nerf in raw power, considering how much worse REs are compared to Grenadiers, but you’d also get the element of surprise when a RE squad suddenly pops off a rifle grenade in what you thought was going to be an easy fight.


The clone concept is good enough IMO. But if RE rifle nades can become an original feature, then thats 2 birds with 1 stone.

IMO rifle nades could be moved to rifle company and pair it with flares. But also rework rifle nades as Lago suggested.

For some reason moving nades to riflemen makes it less spammable and gives them an extra degree of freedom of utiliy. BAR+Rifle nade sounds very interesting for a midgame situation and on top of that smokes to effectively dislodge axis HMGs.

The only downside i find of making flares more reliable and consistent (not being dogdge able) is the consequent adjust/nerf to compensate. Wether it be a prohibitive cost or a lower damage output. I want to see them ingame, not as a meme but as a viable option. A longer cd sounds feasable, since with a good kiting you could fire a nade and retreat to a safer spot. Repeat this again and the enemy will abandon or loose its units.
22 Jun 2019, 10:05 AM
#123
avatar of Brick Top

Posts: 1163

What sucks about current state, is its going to absolutley ruin low level players, with zero effort involved from the guy using it.
23 Jun 2019, 16:58 PM
#124
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053


240 manpower and no munitions.


No (why would you need to?).


No.


No.


Yes (not that it needs to...).


Depends. If it's not a frontline territory, then it's not unwise.


No (not that it needs to be...).


About as long as it would take for a rifle grenade rear echelon squad to walk over there and shell the point itself. In fact, probably shorter than that.

So, how did I score? Did I pass?

Also REs don't have 80 range on their riflenades lmao.

I still think the best way to change this ability would be to keep the 60 muni upgrade but make it a free skillshot ability with a short-ish cooldown (to keep the firerate down) that's just ever so slightly stronger than fighting position nades. That way it isn't braindead but still fulfills its purpose (garrison and cover denial without spamming and wasting muni on actual grenades, similar to a flamethrower) without being way too easy to use for how annoying it can be.
17 Jan 2020, 20:05 PM
#125
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1

They are still super braindead. Just watching Helping Hans today lose in early to mid game to a lower-ranked opponent simply because of RE rifle grenade denying cover non-stop made me remember the abomination that this stupid ability is. It should get changed to a passive ability that works like a regular grenade instead of this constant grenade spam without any micro input neccessary.
17 Jan 2020, 20:10 PM
#126
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

They should have just copied Grenadier rifle grenades instead of this abomination.
17 Jan 2020, 20:45 PM
#127
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

The problem with RET grenades is assymetric micro.

A squad under fire from RET grenades requires constant attention to dodge them, whereas the RET squad itself requires none.

That makes for a pretty unpleasant game experience.



I see two good solutions to this that don't involve deleting RET grenades.

The first is to make them detonate on impact so they can't be dodged, then balance their damage around that. Make them a mini-mortar.

The second is to make the grenades manually targeted. That way, there's parity of micro: a click to shoot, a click to dodge.
17 Jan 2020, 20:52 PM
#128
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1

Maybe also make them unable to shoot them out of a garrison because that is super unbalanced. On small maps where most units are close to each other there is simply no way to deal with Rifles when a RE with grenade is sitting next to them in a safe garrison. Considering Riflemen are really strong at all stages of the game now it's just too much.
17 Jan 2020, 20:54 PM
#129
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Jan 2020, 20:45 PMLago
The problem with RET grenades is assymetric micro.

The second is to make the grenades manually targeted. That way, there's parity of micro: a click to shoot, a click to dodge.


This would fix it and make it fair for both sides.
17 Jan 2020, 20:56 PM
#130
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Jan 2020, 20:45 PMLago
The problem with RET grenades is assymetric micro.

A squad under fire from RET grenades requires constant attention to dodge them, whereas the RET squad itself requires none.

That makes for a pretty unpleasant game experience.

You literally only have to close on them, that's all.
Volks have no problems here, gren G43 or 5 man work wonders too against ret nade spam.
17 Jan 2020, 20:59 PM
#131
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Jan 2020, 20:56 PMKatitof

You literally only have to close on them, that's all.
Volks have no problems here, gren G43 or 5 man work wonders too against ret nade spam.


Closing in against Riflemen sounds like a perfect way to win engagements to you? You are aware they are used in combination with other units?

Not just the fact that it's super hard to deal with it also feels very frustrating and annoying. It's just not fun at all and rage-inducing.

17 Jan 2020, 21:02 PM
#132
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



Closing in against Riflemen sounds like a perfect way to win engagements to you? You are aware they are used in combination with other units?

Not just the fact that it's super hard to deal with it also feels very frustrating and annoying. It's just not fun at all and rage-inducing.


Bring suppression and that RET is useless then.
1 squad is not issue and blob is easily countered.

So, which scenario you're defending here, so I know what I'm standing on in terms of further discussion?
17 Jan 2020, 21:41 PM
#133
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Jan 2020, 21:02 PMKatitof

Bring suppression and that RET is useless then.
1 squad is not issue and blob is easily countered.

So, which scenario you're defending here, so I know what I'm standing on in terms of further discussion?


Micro disparity.
17 Jan 2020, 21:49 PM
#134
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Jan 2020, 21:02 PMKatitof

Bring suppression and that RET is useless then.
1 squad is not issue and blob is easily countered.

So, which scenario you're defending here, so I know what I'm standing on in terms of further discussion?


Blob is easily countered? So why is blobbing meta in 2v2? And an MG doesn't counter a RET either because you can shoot the grenades from inside garrisons, over shot blockers, can park the RET behind green cover. Stop defending broken abilities just because they are on the Allied side.
17 Jan 2020, 22:05 PM
#135
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 785

I've said it before, but this upgrade should have been something that unlocks an ability not dissimilar to the Grenadier rifle grenade ability, and not a permanently auto-firing accessory slot weapon. If it was turned into an ability type weapon the range could probably even be increased back to what it was.

As it is now it's an awkward weapon that most people don't like playing against.
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