Echelon Grenades

Its easier to run UP to a squad then from it.
It takes one click within 20 range of RETs.

1-2PGs/AGs will do the job for ost and OKW can just continue rolling on volks and do the same.

And if there is RET spam with nades, LV will completely shut it down.

You've literally quoted me saying this isn't about the squad's power, then talked about the squad's power. Once again, I don't care how strong the squad is.

What I care about is that they play like a quick-time event at the moment.

You frame it as if you are required to stay in their firing range and dodge the shots... why not just move out of range?

Its easier to run UP to a squad then from it.
It takes one click within 20 range of RETs.

1-2PGs/AGs will do the job for ost and OKW can just continue rolling on volks and do the same.

And if there is RET spam with nades, LV will completely shut it down.

In a vacuum yes. As a support squad is how the RE nades shine (which isn't a bad thing so to say) but the issue lies in passively denying a core game mechanic--cover. A set and forget style support weapon (or squad) is simply bad design. It's very much the same problem that the old mortar pit had in that as long as the enemy is in range their micro tax is increased with little effort from the USF player. It's just bad business. Making it cheaper to acquire but adding a micro tax to it isn't going to ruin the ability. It will still allow for long range flushing of cover but it will require some effort to do so. There is no excuse for zero input abilities to negate core game mechanics.

In a vacuum yes. As a support squad is how the RE nades shine (which isn't a bad thing so to say) but the issue lies in passively denying a core game mechanic--cover. A set and forget style support weapon (or squad) is simply bad design. It's very much the same problem that the old mortar pit had in that as long as the enemy is in range their micro tax is increased with little effort from the USF player. It's just bad business. Making it cheaper to acquire but adding a micro tax to it isn't going to ruin the ability. It will still allow for long range flushing of cover but it will require some effort to do so. There is no excuse for zero input abilities to negate core game mechanics.

Don't mortars (not just the mortar pit) operate much the same way? Theyre set and forget, and they deny cover. Obviously there are differences, but with regards to everything you said regarding why they are badly designed, they're the same.

double

Nobody had any problem with RE grenades autofiring when it was from their dinky firing positions (which this patch also broke somehow). Now it's suddenly a problem. If they do get made a skillshot, have it do some real damage, even if it requires munitions per shot.

Don't mortars (not just the mortar pit) operate much the same way? Theyre set and forget, and they deny cover. Obviously there are differences, but with regards to everything you said regarding why they are badly designed, they're the same.

How much does the cheapest mortar cost?
Can you garrison a mortar?
Can you out a zook on a mortar?
Can a mortar repair vehicles?
Can a mortar smoke for itself?
Is it wise to risk a mortar to cap territory?
Should a mortar at any point be on the front line?
How long does it usually take for a mortar to start shelling a target or deliver smoke?

Getting say 2 mortars very much will impact the way that you play. Double RE will slow your early game combat power but greatly increase your capping power and scales to whatever task you might need them for later as well, building caches, repairs ect.
Mortars do not...

Nobody had any problem with RE grenades autofiring when it was from their dinky firing positions (which this patch also broke somehow). Now it's suddenly a problem. If they do get made a skillshot, have it do some real damage, even if it requires munitions per shot.

Gee, I wonder why there would be a difference in a 325mp static point and a mobile 200mp one. I can't for the life of me figure it out. Is it the I don't know... Mobility? Or the MP investment? Notice people complain about the mortar pits weaknesses but not the cheaper mobile mortars? Same thing..

How much does the cheapest mortar cost?

240 manpower and no munitions.

Can you garrison a mortar?

No (why would you need to?).

Can you out a zook on a mortar?

No.

Can a mortar repair vehicles?

No.

Can a mortar smoke for itself?

Yes (not that it needs to...).

Is it wise to risk a mortar to cap territory?

Depends. If it's not a frontline territory, then it's not unwise.

Should a mortar at any point be on the front line?

No (not that it needs to be...).

How long does it usually take for a mortar to start shelling a target or deliver smoke?

About as long as it would take for a rifle grenade rear echelon squad to walk over there and shell the point itself. In fact, probably shorter than that.

So, how did I score? Did I pass?

Ok, how about this:

A. Change it so that RE have the passive ability to fire rifle grenades that are a clone of Grenadier Rifle grenades. No upgrade cost and it’s given to all RE squads, but costs munitions per shot and is manually targeted exactly like Grenadier rifle grenades.

Or.

B. Replace the ability with RE flamethrowers and put RE rifle grenades in the Rifle Company Commander.

See my other thread on how I think Rifle Company could be reworked if you are interested.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/92039/usf-rifle-company-rework

240 manpower and no munitions.


No (why would you need to?).


No.


No.


Yes (not that it needs to...).


Depends. If it's not a frontline territory, then it's not unwise.


No (not that it needs to be...).


About as long as it would take for a rifle grenade rear echelon squad to walk over there and shell the point itself. In fact, probably shorter than that.

So, how did I score? Did I pass?

I'll give you a 60%. You answered the words but not the sentiment. A mortar has one job (2 I guess, cause smoke) and costs more manpower. Has no potential for front line combat nor upgrades. It's OK for the mortar to bring that power because that's all it does, and RE is far more flexible and adaptable. It shouldn't also micro free displace units in cover at such a range. I'm not saying the ability should be gutted, I'm saying it should have a micro cost to reflect what it inflicts and a reduction in munitions cost to reflect that change.

Another big thing there is that while mortars are non-doctrinal, the RE rifle grenades ARE doctrinal. Anything that is doctrinal has a hidden cost associated with it: opportunity cost.

By choosing to use Urban Assault in order to get RE rifle grenades, you lose the opportunity to get things not contained in the commander such as an advanced medium tank like the Easy Eight or 76mm Sherman or a heavy tank like the Pershing.

So a direct comparison to a non-doctrinal unit isn’t exactly 1:1. It really is an apples to oranges thing.

You've literally quoted me saying this isn't about the squad's power, then talked about the squad's power. Once again, I don't care how strong the squad is.

What I care about is that they play like a quick-time event at the moment.

So.... exactly the same like flamers, but at a different distance(unless you're one of these top dogs who just hug green/garrison cover regardless of flames).
Which..... happens to be the fucking point of the ability.

So.... exactly the same like flamers, but at a different distance(unless you're one of these top dogs who just hug green/garrison cover regardless of flames).
Which..... happens to be the fucking point of the ability.

When was the last time you played the game if you think you can dodge a flamer? It's a DoT weapon. If a flamer goes for your garrison, you get out of the garrison. You don't hop out, wait for the grenade to go off and hop back in.

It's practically the mechanical opposite of the rifle grenades.

Or.

B. Replace the ability with RE flamethrowers and put RE rifle grenades in the Rifle Company Commander.

Then you've just moved the problem to another commander.

My problem is with the mechanics of the rifle grenades, not their availability or their power.

Don't mortars (not just the mortar pit) operate much the same way? Theyre set and forget, and they deny cover. Obviously there are differences, but with regards to everything you said regarding why they are badly designed, they're the same.

I don't think mortars operate that differently from infantry squads at a high concept level. They have a range around them they can shoot, and they'll autofire at enemy squads within that range.

You can't realistically dodge the mortar shells any more that you can realistically dodge an LMG. All you can do is position your troops in a manner that mitigates the damage.

For an LMG, that's behind cover. For a mortar, that's spread out.

Yes, the mortar only needed one click to set up, but you only need one click (a reposition order) to react to it.

This is the strength of CoH's design: it's (usually) not an APM game. It's about smart actions rather than more actions.



My problem with the Rifle Grenades is that you can dodge them.

Imagine if mortars had shell timers. The shells land, and you've got a few moments to move your squad before they go off.

That mortar now requires much less thought to deal with. You just move your squad off the timer.

However, it now demands a disproportionate amount of attention. You need to constanly keep an eye on that squad in case a timer goes down. You need to move it off the timer, wait for the timer to go off, and then move it back.

When you're trying manage other engagements, this time-consuming yet menial quick-time event is really, really annoying.

The solution is simple: if this is to be an autofire weapon, ditch the timers. Accelerate the projectiles. Make it unrealistic to dodge these things. Then balance their damage around the fact that they can't be dodged.

That solves everything.

...

That solves everything.

There's nothing to solve. This is now 6 pages for an upgrade that barely does anything unless something is garrisoned. This is now 6 pages discussing an upgrade because someone is annoyed to micro their units. This is a non-issue.

There's nothing to solve. This is now 6 pages for an upgrade that barely does anything unless something is garrisoned. This is now 6 pages discussing an upgrade because someone is annoyed to micro their units. This is a non-issue.

Nobody is forcing you to post here if you're not interested in the discussion.

Moving it to Rifle Company does solve the problem by diluting it into another commander that is less prone to spam the unit that can get it.

In Urban Assault you can forego Riflemen completely and spam REs with rifle grenades, get your officers to fill in the gaps and then get Rangers. You wouldn’t have the Rangers in Rifle Company, so this strategy would be less effective.

HOWEVER! I think what you said about reworking the ability is valid.

I think the easiest way to rework the ability it to make it identical to Grenadier rifle grenades. REs gain the ability to shoot rifle grenades just like Grenadiers. No upgrade, just a passive new ability. It would be a substantial nerf in raw power, considering how much worse REs are compared to Grenadiers, but you’d also get the element of surprise when a RE squad suddenly pops off a rifle grenade in what you thought was going to be an easy fight.

I think the easiest way to rework the ability it to make it identical to Grenadier rifle grenades. REs gain the ability to shoot rifle grenades just like Grenadiers. No upgrade, just a passive new ability. It would be a substantial nerf in raw power, considering how much worse REs are compared to Grenadiers, but you’d also get the element of surprise when a RE squad suddenly pops off a rifle grenade in what you thought was going to be an easy fight.

More powerful, manually targeted grenades could work too.

You could easily keep the one-off purchase of the launcher by making the grenades free with a cooldown.

The upgrade is cool for Echelons. Sometimes I feel it can be more useful than a Flamethrower cuz it is a free greande toss after when the upgrade is purchased!

Relies the enemy on heavily micro manage which is highly advantageous in many case scenarios. Useful against blobs particulary and defense areas.

I think I would not mind it being default also but if it were somewhat a bit more costy than a "Flame thrower" upgrade.

Hopefully even become accessible to other factions such as ukfokwsovietsostheer also!

You can't realistically dodge the mortar shells

But you can dodge mortar shells. Just move your squad once you hear it fire, sure it's a bit more difficult if you have multiple squads in range, and you have to move a little further because of the dispersion, but it's not any different in principle. Same silly dance around VP or from cover to cover.

It's role is the same as the flamethrowers - cover/garrison denial, I don't see how having the ability to dodge somehow makes it worse.

You can dodge barrages. I don't think dodging autofire is realistic, and mortars definitely aren't balanced around being dodged.