German flexibility vs Soviet flexibility
Posts: 2742
Flanking can negate an MGs role, as can a light vehicle. One is sort of an art of CoH strategy, the other one costs fuel.
Posts: 5
Soviets have to specilize because important units lie in different buildings. You cant build all the buildings you have to select two, and they cost alot and take a very long time to build, which doenst make sense.
So half of the soviet army will always be unavailable to the soviet player, unlike germans whos units all lie in the different tiers as they tech up, they have access to all thier infantry except pgrens in thier t1 building right off the bat.
This inheritly allows for germans to be able to do much more things and have much more flexible strategies. There is no denying this fact. I feel after the soviet player makes two buildings, the others should go down in price and build time so if he so wishes, and has the extra resources, he can make a third building to get access to more of his army without putting himself behind so much in fuel that its a death sentence.
Conscripts are so bad and are just a manpower drain on the soviet player. They are outclassed in every single way and die very fast to LMG grens, and the grens can get LMG's within the first minutes of the game, which is ludacris and unbalanced. Its also not doctrinal like the only way soviets have of upgrading conscripts so they can fight back (PPsh). Also, soviet players have to pay 250 man power and 50 fuel just so that thier conscripts can have the same abilities as grens do for free right off the bat.
Combat Engineers for some reason cost more than thier counterpart pioneers. And build times are ludacris which is why 90% of all soviet players have to start out spamming conscripts, which are outclassed in every way especially since losing thier bulletins in the past patch.
I play both and am decently ranked with both, and I know without fanboyism, that germans are slighty overpowered and you can just do so much more with them, they are more fun, they are able to dictate the flow of battle because of the sheer number of possible strategys they can use and the soviet always seems to have to counter them.
Tiger tanks are way too tough and powerful for only being 200 fuel, many times have i had all the fuel on the map and still my enemy is able to call in a tiger and use it to eventually win the game, since when its vet 1 ability comes up its way too strong. Multiple Zis's + su85's wont kill this thing in time because 80% of the shots will be deflected. Its an easy "I win" button that works unless your really bad or your against overwhelming odds and have no luck.
All german armor outclasses soviet armor in every way, but soviets dont even have the AT options germans have with thier panzershreks. Also blitzkreig STILL works when your engine is damaged while ram doesnt, and the devs have known about this and still havent fixed it.
It all doesnt make much sense to me, and how the devs and community can think this is 100% balanced is beyond logic, the people who say this only play german so they wouldnt know. Soviet is hard mode for sure. I can go on and on about balance but it will fall on fanboy ears and make no difference.
Highly ranked german player and decent ranked soviet player, i play both
http://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198096023775
Very well put. I stopped playing because of exactly what you wrote, still checking out the forum though. Russians are unplayable.
Posts: 5
Aaand another person who wont answer a direct question.
Seems to be very difficult for some people these days.
Dunno. For me it was a necessary skill I learned in school.
Either you answered your test questions specifically and relevantly, using the proper syntax, Or you failed. Maybe that is no longer the case and kids just run around saying "no, im not gonna answer your question".
A) Where does Ost flexibility reside?
B) Where does Sov flexibility reside?
Seemed simple enough to me. But I guess not.
Dont answer then.
--->
Someone ban this troll please.
Posts: 133
Soviets have their hard counters to german meta strats also, for example mid-late game have you went heavy on p4's and ostwinds for an is2 to show up recently ?
Posts: 133
Posts: 1042
I don't understand how you can say Soviet flexibility is anywhere on par with German flexibility. Germans have access to all their army list. Soviets have access to half at a relatively equal price to Germans. Not only that but German units are superior in most respects to Soviet equivalents. Somethings wrong when you need a ton of micro compared to your opponent who requires a good deal less.
Posts: 1617
True, but good luck getting the fuel for that.
I don't understand how you can say Soviet flexibility is anywhere on par with German flexibility. Germans have access to all their army list. Soviets have access to half at a relatively equal price to Germans. Not only that but German units are superior in most respects to Soviet equivalents. Somethings wrong when you need a ton of micro compared to your opponent who requires a good deal less.
Agree. Also don't forget that you even try to change your BO in battle (for example you have T2-T3 but you need to build up T4) is really expensive and puts you in a bad positions due to the building prices. But they say "doctrines meant to fill the gaps", yeah but those units are expensive or underperforming, also if you pick the wrong doctrine you are screwed, 'cause building every base building isn't affordable.
Posts: 68
MGs suppress and pin Infantry, Mortars clear MGs, Infantry clear mortar teams. Snipers are fragile wildcards. Rock-Paper-Scissors-Sniper.
Very well put. I stopped playing because of exactly what you wrote, still checking out the forum though. Russians are unplayable.
Far from unplayable. More difficult, maybe. Requiring forethought, possibly. But then, the soviet forces are still able to meet most threats with fewer units, so long as they are chosen to complement one another.
Someone ban this troll please.
Aaaaand who the hell are you, anyway, Mr. 5-post count? There's a fellow expressing his opinion, who often backs up his opinions with statistics and reasoning, albeit frustrated with the attitude received in kind. Level-headed? Not so much. Doesn't matter if you agree with it or not - You can't walk into a community like you own the place and demand that one of its most active members be removed. Further, this reply adds nothing of value to the discussion we are having here, so I ask, kindly, that you do your best to keep on-topic. Thank you.
Posts: 1
The game is fairly balanced, its just that the current successful strategies are very abusive and not to appealing to the majority of rts fans.
I took a look at the statistics of the top 200 ladder player from each faction.
Soviets:
Number of games: 30429
Win ratio: 0.644943967925
Germans:
Number of games: 31035
Win ratio: 0.699500563879
Arguably "fairly" balanced, but with a clear advantage to the Germans. I agree with several others in this thread about the lack of flexibility for the Soviet faction. This makes the Soviets less fun to play than they should be.
Stats were generated using the following Python code, put it in ladder-stats.py and run it with
python ladder-stats.py "http://www.coh2.org/ladders/index/1/1/0"(for Soviets and Germans, respectively).
python ladder-stats.py "http://www.coh2.org/ladders/index/0/1/0"
from BeautifulSoup import BeautifulSoup
import urllib2, sys
url = sys.argv[1]
content = urllib2.urlopen(url).read()
soup = BeautifulSoup(content)
totalWins = 0
totalLosses = 0
for page in range(1, 10):
for ul in soup.findAll('ul', attrs={'class':('ladders items page page-' + str(page))}):
for wins in ul.findAll('div', attrs={'class':'wins'}):
totalWins += int(wins.text)
for losses in ul.findAll('div', attrs={'class':'losses'}):
totalLosses += int(losses.text)
print("Number of games: " + str(totalLosses + totalWins))
print("Win ratio: " + str(float(totalWins)/float(totalLosses + totalWins)))
Posts: 950 | Subs: 1
Posts: 401
In 2v2, the gap narrows slightly, probably due to Soviets being able to split the Soviet tech trees, along with smaller, more manageable maps.
I think the more players you add, or brackets of players down the line, the wider the gap.
Posts: 1042
Posts: 401
You need HMGs for the early PGrens, AGrens, and to get into buildings near major fuel points to halt expansion and delay enemies long enough to prevent early delaying bunkers.
Bunkers overall aren't useful, but they work as a delaying tactic even for the best of players in 3v3.
Snipers take too long to dislodge units in buildings, and the devs forgot to roll back some M3 nerfs when they buffed all of its counters.
Soviets can hit critical masses of certain units when hitting the late game siege situations. But the only use I've seen out of T-34s is to ram everything in sight to give my teammates a chance to get in.
Posts: 480
the leaderboard stats go back all the way through beta, so looking at win ratios really doesnt mean much at all. if you could find the win ratio for just this patch, that would be a different story, but the game and the balance has changed so much you really cant draw any conclusions from those numbers.
Exactly.
Those specific ratios are not that useful when a lot of the top 200 are players who've been inactive for a long time, and I'm also not sure twe you can generalise from the win rates of the top 200 to the rest of the playerbase.
Posts: 688
But the whole setup on the german side is so much easier - that's a fact.
It's not really balanced, but I wouldn't want Relic to change the playstyle of the factions. I think they are both well designed, they just don't fit players at all levels very well.
Somehow there should be a tax on the german faction at lower levels. For example production time should be increased. Or prices increased. It should be technically possible, I think, without having to tamper with the actual unitstats, because that will mess up the balance for the top level play that all of us also wants to see.
Posts: 879
Those stats are interesting, but I'd like to see the intermediate levels, say rank 100-250. That ought to show that as skill decreases, Soviets are even more unwieldy.
Posts: 409
Exactly.
Those specific ratios are not that useful when a lot of the top 200 are players who've been inactive for a long time, and I'm also not sure twe you can generalise from the win rates of the top 200 to the rest of the playerbase.
They really should do a ladder reset so the inactive players are filtered out. That way the stats would actually mean something (potentially).
Posts: 401
Posts: 829
Well, ladder decay is in now, but it'll probably take some time for it to affect the ladder.
Apparently, only for top 200........
Posts: 2742
Which I guess is weirdly a sort of morbid take on keeping the game historical. :|
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