M36 Jackson

A tank destroyer shutting down a tank. Panther can completely shutdown the sherman too, so panther needs a nerf? whats your point?

The theory that M36 must completely shut the PzIV because the PzIV has the edge over Sherman does not hold water.

If one add all the utility that comes with Sherman like crew, smoke, HE and cost the units is as cost efficient if not superior to PzIV.

Utility doesn't kill and doesn't give any kind of edge over same archetype and price range unit in an engagement between the two.
If utility was half as useful as you make it seem, conscripts would be most op infantry in game, yet for some reason they aren't, in fact they sit on polar opposite of that spectrum.

Shermans and even USF ATG especially against vet2 P4(or OKW P4 in general) are cost inefficient and utility doesn't balance this out.

The "theory" that M36 must shut down P4 is confirmed by empirical facts, making it scientifical theory.
You can still call it a theory, but its factual, confirmed theory.

The sole fact that M36 got more range means it completely shuts down P4 and will continue to do so, regardless of what you'll do to it, just like firefly also shuts down P4 completely despite being vastly inferior TD.

A tank destroyer shutting down a tank. Panther can completely shutdown the sherman too, so panther needs a nerf? whats your point?

Tds are there to counter tanks not make them obsolete. 100% chance to hit and penetrate at range 60 is simply too much.

Tds are there to counter tanks not make them obsolete. 100% chance to hit and penetrate at range 60 is simply too much.

So are MGs.
Yet for some incomprehensible reason, infantry in HMG range is obsolete and can't do anything.

Why its a problem for tanks suddenly?
And why its a problem for axis tanks specifically and only?

Utility doesn't kill and doesn't give any kind of edge over same archetype and price range unit in an engagement between the two.
If utility was half as useful as you make it seem, conscripts would be most op infantry in game, yet for some reason they aren't, in fact they sit on polar opposite of that spectrum.

Conscript/Sherman analogy equals apples and and oranges.

Shermans and even USF ATG especially against vet2 P4(or OKW P4 in general) are cost inefficient and utility doesn't balance this out.

Vet 2 does not magically happen. If the you opponent has 2 vet bonuses over you you are simply doing something wrong.

In addition if the units are moving accuracy advantage goes clearly to Sherman even if the penetration advantage goes to PzIV. The PzIV also is more expensive.

Finally if you problem is the vet 2 armor bonus PzIV simply replace with different one, it would actually be a buff to PzIV because the bonus is completely useless once the FF/SU-85/m36 hits the field.

The "theory" that M36 must shut down P4 is confirmed by empirical facts, making it scientifical theory.
You can still call it a theory, but its factual, confirmed theory.

Thanks you for confirming that M36 completely shuts down PzIV which is something users deny.

The theory part is that M36 has to or Ostheer will dominate USF using PzIV and unless you have empirical "facts" (evidence would be more appropriate) it remain a theory that imo hold very little water. I am pretty confident USF can counter PzIV spam even without M36. The M36 was buffed to counter Panther spams not PzIV spam.

The sole fact that M36 got more range means it completely shuts down P4 and will continue to do so, regardless of what you'll do to it, just like firefly also shuts down P4 completely despite being vastly inferior TD.

Not really I have provide an easy solution to this problem allowing tds to be balanced separately vs Super heavies and mediums.

So are MGs.
Yet for some incomprehensible reason, infantry in HMG range is obsolete and can't do anything.

Why its a problem for tanks suddenly?
And why its a problem for axis tanks specifically and only?

Because it is more like a scenario Panther gets 70 range. Now fight with Jacksons and Shermans. GG

Because it is more like a scenario Panther gets 70 range. Now fight with Jacksons and Shermans. GG

Not even close for reasons specificed multiple times in every thread mentioning panther(this one included).

Not even close for reasons specificed multiple times in every thread mentioning panther(this one included).

Sure it is, you asked for it. Here is the answer for your stupid question what is the problem with the range system.

Edit: And yes, range isn't everything. Back too the topic, Jackson is overperforming versus most targets.

Sure it is, you asked for it. Here is the answer for your stupid question what is the problem with the range system.

Range "problem" doesn't exist if you flank.
It exist only if you move your tank through the middle of the current frontline on open enough map.
You will also never lose a tank that way, just have it retreat for repair, because 60 range TDs at 60 range aren't going to chase you.
And TDs are supposed to outrange tanks.
That's what they all do.
The one situation where they aren't, is if they are durable enough to just stand there and slug it frontally against anything with less health and armor*cough*panther*cough* and even in that solitary situation, a vehicle meant to kill tanks STILL outranges tanks and makes them irrelevant in any frontal engagement.

Range "problem" doesn't exist if you flank.
It exist only if you move your tank through the middle of the current frontline on open enough map.
You will also never lose a tank that way, just have it retreat for repair, because 60 range TDs at 60 range aren't going to chase you.
And TDs are supposed to outrange tanks.
That's what they all do.
The one situation where they aren't, is if they are durable enough to just stand there and slug it frontally against anything with less health and armor*cough*panther*cough* and even in that solitary situation, a vehicle meant to kill tanks STILL outranges tanks and makes them irrelevant in any frontal engagement.

It would be a difference if US special rounds get same accuracy as OKW heat ability. So you get very bad movement accuracy. It will needs some skill to us Jackson.

Its not terribly unreasonavlble either given the price points.
Thebost p4 is slightly more expensive and also has a slight edge in tank combat. That said all the other allied mediums have advantages that manage to balance that out with a slight micro requirement. Sherman has its great moving modifier, cromwell is zippy as fuck, T34 is cheap....

Its not like the p4 wins by a huge margin. It's got an edge and that can be overcome by a better allied player. Seems reasonable.

Who said its terrible? Who said Sherman should be cheaper and better than Pz4? Pz4 is better than Sherman in AT and Moving Accuracy Argument is a noob trap for noob players, past a certain level of experience players know to stop their tank before firing, a non-moving Pz4 has better accuracy than a moving sherman.

And again, I'm not saying that the current situation is bad, I'm just stating what's the current situation. Now some people want the Jackson to be nerfed and from this there 3 possible outcomes:

1- useless nerf to make happy some players, like increasing 10 fuel or 50 manpower. It is not going to change anything.
2- Strong nerf and we can say again bye bye to USF for some time.
3- Intelligent redesign of USF late game options including some nerf and UP for different units so the faction is more viable and less frustrating to play against.

It would be a difference if US special rounds get same accuracy as OKW heat ability. So you get very bad movement accuracy. It will needs some skill to us Jackson.

Moving accuracy is literally no issue if you're skilled enough and can count in your head to 5 or 6.

Do people also realize that panthers are not meant to sit at max range of jackson and try to snipe it? Its meant to dive close with its superior health pool, which can be equally frustrating for allied player when 860 hp tank rushes your tank and you cant make enpugh meaningful damage to scare it away. Its way its designed to work and there are tools to counter that as well.

Do people also realize that panthers are not meant to sit at max range of jackson and try to snipe it? Its meant to dive close with its superior health pool, which can be equally frustrating for allied player when 860 hp tank rushes your tank and you cant make enpugh meaningful damage to scare it away. Its way its designed to work and there are tools to counter that as well.

In fact sitting at max range, Panther wins completely vs Jackson in a vacuum unless strong RNG deviance happened.

Moving accuracy is literally no issue if you're skilled enough and can count in your head to 5 or 6.

Not really.

If 2 tanks are equal and player A has to stop to fire and the Player B does not have, player B has a clear advantage.

In the end of the day if it is "literally no issue" we should lower moving accuracy of all USf vehicles to 0.50 for consistency reason alone.

Not really.

If 2 tanks are equal and player A has to stop to fire and the Player B does not have, player B has a clear advantage.

In the end of the day if it is "literally no issue" we should lower moving accuracy of all USf vehicles to 0.50 for consistency reason alone.

Sure he does, but that's still possible, also tank that needs to stop. Press stop command, not wait until tanks is still, because standing accuracy applies from the moment you press S, not when tank actually stops, meaning you can still have "moving" tank with standing accuracy, you do it fast enough, you're not losing much speed at all and it just happens you have convenient blitz as well at your disposal, OKW blitz makes you more accurate, Ost blitz makes you less likely to get hit.

Also, moving accuracy is faction trait in this case.
You might just as well suggest that OKW trucks can't be deployed outside of base sector.

Sure he does, but that's still possible, also tank that needs to stop. Press stop command, not wait until tanks is still, because standing accuracy applies from the moment you press S, not when tank actually stops, meaning you can still have "moving" tank with standing accuracy, you do it fast enough, you're not losing much speed at all and it just happens you have convenient blitz as well at your disposal, OKW blitz makes you more accurate, Ost blitz makes you less likely to get hit.

The fact that one can fire before the tank is stationary does not change the fact that a "gliding" shot tank move slower and depending of acceleration it might never be able to actually reach top speed. It is also much more micro intensive.

Also, moving accuracy is faction trait in this case.
You might just as well suggest that OKW trucks can't be deployed outside of base sector.

Apples oranges.

You described moving accuracy bonus as an "literally no issue", it clearly is an issue.

They actually have the best AT gun in the game IF you spend the muni for HVAP.

I respectfully disagree, i take a ZIS (with its barage) and a PAK40 anytime over a M1.

The fact that one can fire before the tank is stationary does not change the fact that a "gliding" shot tank move slower and depending of acceleration it might never be able to actually reach top speed. It is also much more micro intensive.

Oh yes, without a question.
I'm also doing it ever since I got to know about it.
Its not half as bad or crippling as you make it seem if you have good timing and micro.

You described moving accuracy bonus as an "literally no issue", it clearly is an issue.

So make your mind already.
So far about every single stat except health is an issue for you.
I've got an idea, lets slap 15 more fuel on the unit and call it a day.
Its not like you can ever get more then 2 without sacrificing all other armor presence due to pop cap anyway.

Oh yes, without a question.
I'm also doing it ever since I got to know about it.
Its not half as bad or crippling as you make it seem if you have good timing and micro.

Glide shot is technique used to avoid moving penalty, it result in slower moving speed and increases micro. It is not "bad or crippling" else people would not used it.

The distance between saying that moving accuracy bonus is "literally no issue" and being "bad or crippling" to use glide shot, is counted in light years, so for 100 time stop twisting what I post.

USF vehicles have a clear advantage because of the lower moving accuracy penalty, this is a "confirmed theory"

So make your mind already.

I have made up my mind and there is nothing indicating that I have change it.

So far about every single stat except health is an issue for you.

Not really I have never made such a claim and pls for 100 time stop putting word in my mouth.

I've got an idea, lets slap 15 more fuel on the unit and call it a day.
Its not like you can ever get more then 2 without sacrificing all other armor presence due to pop cap anyway.

Increasing the cost by 15 will have little impact in 1vs1 and even less in bigger modes.