Mirror Match

But they irrefutably do alleviate balance problems - especially when it comes to tournaments. Forcing people to play a faction on a map that is horrible for that faction is awful for competitive play and is quite possibly among the main reasons that CoH never became more than a speck of dust in e-sports.

It seems completely obvious to me that the real problem here is map imbalance, not mirror matches.

HATE IT.

I agree. Dont like it.

But they irrefutably do alleviate balance problems - especially when it comes to tournaments. Forcing people to play a faction on a map that is horrible for that faction is awful for competitive play and is quite possibly among the main reasons that CoH never became more than a speck of dust in e-sports.

so you want to force one of the two players in a bad starting position? or you want to force them into a mirror matchup that isn't balanced at all? how does that irrefutably alleviate balance problems? you simply can not, as in close to impossible, balance the same map in a way that would, for example, be balanced for us vs wehr, us vs us, AND wehr vs wehr. it is, however, possible to almost perfectly balance a map for a certain matchup, given enough time and resources.
so much for irrefutability. (i didn't even mention that right before you say that it is irrefutable that mirrors alleviate balance problems, you quote me saying that it's harder to balance 3 matchups than balance 1 matchup AKA mirrors vs. no mirrors, with mirror being harder to balance, and agreed with me)

a symmetric map would be logically perfectly balanced in mirrors, in the sense that starting position would not bias the winner one way or another.

The unrealistic, unaesthetic thing which Relic should add to the game are symmetric maps unhinged from real world approximation. On paper at least it would be much easier to balance these.

It seems completely obvious to me that the real problem here is map imbalance, not mirror matches.

If mirror matches were in (and balanced,) then yes, the only problem would be the problems thrown up by asymmetrical maps. If they're not in, then those map imbalances become glaring issues like we see in the majority of CoH maps. These map imbalances are put under a microscope when you force asymmetrical factions on them. Tiny things that would be inconsequential become huge problems that render entire maps simply unplayable. Allowing mirror matches would greatly reduce these imbalances.

so you want to force one of the two players in a bad starting position? or you want to force them into a mirror matchup that isn't balanced at all? how does that irrefutably alleviate balance problems? you simply can not, as in close to impossible, balance the same map in a way that would, for example, be balanced for us vs wehr, us vs us, AND wehr vs wehr. it is, however, possible to almost perfectly balance a map for a certain matchup, given enough time and resources.
so much for irrefutability. (i didn't even mention that right before you say that it is irrefutable that mirrors alleviate balance problems, you quote me saying that it's harder to balance 3 matchups than balance 1 matchup AKA mirrors vs. no mirrors, with mirror being harder to balance, and agreed with me)

Throughout the entire thread you have continuously misunderstood and misrepresented about half a dozen different people's posts (followed by "lol just read what i said :-P",) all based on a wild assumption on your part that "mirror matches are incapable of being balanced, but faction1 vs. faction2 will be absolutely fine in every way." (Despite taking nearly 6 years to balance in CoH with 2.602 - of which you yourself criticised in the post before last - you can't have your cake and eat it, chum.) Yes, it's harder to balance mirrors in addition to the vanilla factions - again, literally no-one is disagreeing there, so please, stop waffling on as if you're saying something different to your last 2 dozen posts ITT. Nobody had ever said that. Ever.

However, just because it's not as easy as going "Mirrors? Nah lol, too hard" that doesn't mean it shouldn't be worked on for the benefits it would provide for competitive gameplay. I never said it would alleviate all balance problems - reading comprehension. It would 1.) rid us of having imbalanced factions being in an even stronger/weaker position on the inevitably imbalanced maps, which would in turn greatly reduce the map pool for tournaments, and 2.) get rid of the laughable VP lead system - I'd rather watch a mirror match and see who the better player is than watch someone win a tournament because they got to play US twice on Angoville, any day of the week.

Being against having them in CoH 2 "because I have a feeling deep down in my heart that maybe the developers could possibly not get it 100% perfect, but are somehow going to pull half a dozen brilliant, perfectly balanced maps out of their arse on day 1" is almost as vapid as the realism/authenticity arguments.

Some of you brought up the impact of various designs decisions (like mirror matches) on the competitive community. One thing I can say with near certainty is top players care about mechanics FAR more than aesthetics. The strong interest in mechanics is what leads people to become top players in the first place. If you want a strong competitive community, you must prioritize strategic and tactical diversity above aesthetic concerns.

Do you love the WWII setting and sympathize with the anti-mirror remarks here? That's fine, but realize that a game can be played in multiple ways and the one best suited to you is not high-level competitive play.

I loved vCoH and participated heavily in the competitive community prior to the OF release. Apart from being imbalanced, OF destroyed several of the mechanical aspects that made CoH remarkable and I stopped playing the game entirely. I truly hope that CoH 2 doesn't follow a similar path of prioritizing aesthetics over solid gameplay, but if it does you can be sure that I won't be playing it.

Assuming that mirror matches are balanced as well as non-mirrors, and their inclusion increases both tactical and strategic diversity, CoH 2 should certainly have mirror matches in the ranked and tournament formats. By all means play "realistic" matches in non-ranked; mod the game to make it even more realistic if you like. But realize, only gameplay mechanics should drive decisions about competitive play. A final point: I suggest withholding judgment about how balance will work out in mirror matches until you play CoH 2.

Holy crap Golradaer is back!

And I would like symmetrical maps too. They wouldn't have to LOOK symmetric - there are lots of things you can do to a map in CoH to make parts of it look different but play the same.

I still don't feel like mirrors would make that much of a difference, but I've had a bit of a change of heart.

Mirrors remind me of classic RTS. US vs. US in C&C Generals was ridiculous but still fun.

Wish I could have played with you just once Gol

Can't wait to pwn you in CoH2!

mirror (an or/combo) matches for a ww2 historically accurate RTS doesn't feel right to me. Having russians+germans fighting against a russians+germans seems out of character to me.

i'd be fine with allowing it as long as there was a filter or a setting that the host can turn on/off for a multiplayer match.

Offical statement on mirror matches says that they haven't made up their mind so I guess if we just keep bitching about it that might help them out.

RELIC ADD MIRROR MATCHES IN CUSTOM GAMES PLEASE. AUTOMATCH WOULD BE COOL TOO.

Against it for automatch... fine for skirmish.

+1

Hugely in favour for the record.

Hugely in favour for the record.

+1

"I mean, who really is the best Wehrmacht player if you can’t mirror match to prove it?" [Lynx] I seriously don't buy this argument that you need to introduce mirrors to be able to determine who is the best player of each faction. It's like saying: hey Rommel, you can't be considered the best german commander because you didn't fight against other german commanders. As was stated earlier in this thread in chess there are no mirror matches. Players simply have to play both sides. Why CoH2 can't be the same? I don't need to add that chess is highly competitive game.

I really hope they do include mirrors in the finished game so I can watch all the people saying "I've been playing CoH since release but will not buy CoH2 if it has mirror matches" stick to their word.

Oh the drama on the official forums... People crying about how they will cancel their pre-order because of this.

Mirror matches are good for the competition. They should be in the game.

I'm not good enough at CoH to play at the top level, but my views on competition stem from fighting games, where I do play at a high level.

Hey man where and what do you play?

The best mirror players in DoW2 were almost never the best overall

One thing I don't like is Germans+Russians vs Germans+Russians. For 1v1 its great for competition, but for 2v2-4v4 games it does feel pretty cheesy.