Mirror Match

Who cares about 2v2 and up? Heck if Relic restricted those to non-mirror I wouldn't care.

Could somebody actually give me some idea of what is expected to happen if mirrors are included? An increase in competitive player base? If so, just how big an increase are we talking about? Increased lifespan for the game? Given that CoH appears to be alive and well, how much longer are we talking?

So many dubious new features in a game that already had a perfect gameplay, it is needed?

Axis X Allies > Mirrors

Doctrines > Commanders

Nothing > Intelligence Bulletins

Vertical Resources Panel > Horizontal Mess Panel

Predefined Low, Medium and High Resources > OP all the same value resources across the map

Different Base buildings > All equal and ugly base buildings

Great legendary Voice Acting > Bad Generic Voice acting

Small units with average zoom > Big units with smaller zoom



sigh...

"I mean, who really is the best Wehrmacht player if you can’t mirror match to prove it?" [Lynx] I seriously don't buy this argument that you need to introduce mirrors to be able to determine who is the best player of each faction.

idd
mirrors only show who is the best in mirror matches. Not who is the best overall.

The best mirror players in DoW2 were almost never the best overall

And exactly too. I was horrible in DOW2 ork mirrors.
Not saying that I was the best overall ^^ but my w/l ratio on ork mirrors was probably my worst ratio.


(but I'm still for mirrors, at least in custom games, and even if I don't like them)

Could somebody actually give me some idea of what is expected to happen if mirrors are included? An increase in competitive player base? If so, just how big an increase are we talking about? Increased lifespan for the game? Given that CoH appears to be alive and well, how much longer are we talking?

14 months, 8 days, and 3 hours.

Like honestly do you think there's some mathematical formula we can use? All we can say is that mirror matches are good for competitive play, and if you don't take fucking 12azor's word for it then what more can we give you?

I'm not sure I'd call CoH "alive and well" - Sunday Night Fights + RnP + TFN are pretty much the only games in town in terms of stuff to watch, and the ladder has largely dried up compared to back when CoH was doing pretty well, all things considered.

Not to mention that even right now there's no good solution for who picks the team in the 3rd match of a best of 3 or whatever. You maybe don't care about that but for people playing in tournaments and running tournaments it's pretty annoying.

The competitive CoH community is in my opinion doing very well because of the hard work of a few people in the community and who stuck with the game through thick and thin.

I would like mirror matches because they make organizing tournaments easier. The only fair way I've thought about running matches is that you would have to win by 2 games and keep alternating factions but currently games take far too long in CoH and we wouldn't have enough time to run these gargantuan sets.

Giving the game competitive legs is another story, it is a joint effort between developer and the community. Unfortunately we won't have an observer mode at launch which really puts the breaks on having truly live events streamed.

People seem to think that there's some "esports" organization that picks what games are "esports" and which are not. The actuality of it is that the game's community worked their arses off to get the game they are passionate about on a big stage. It just doesn't happen magically and also not because of how good a game is to play competitively either.

How many of the players play the game professionally ? , How many play , just for the fun of it ? & How many play it , just for a sense of accomplishment ?

All are different people with different reasons to play the game . Thus , Having an option for players & forcing and option on to players are 2 different things .Which way would relic lean ?

Now , The way in which the mirror match-ups would be enabled will be interesting to see . Statistics - Data would make the call eventually

Note:- another example of WW2 styled games with mirror match ups is "World of Tanks"(its not an RTS, But balance and this relevant question is also real to them ) - I remember a similar debate for an against in the forums at the start of closed beta . Now no one cares

Who cares about 2v2 and up? Heck if Relic restricted those to non-mirror I wouldn't care.

Think relic does , a few hundred copies of the game does not make it profitable .

14 months, 8 days, and 3 hours.

Like honestly do you think there's some mathematical formula we can use? All we can say is that mirror matches are good for competitive play, and if you don't take fucking 12azor's word for it then what more can we give you?

I don't like to take anybodies word for anything, if I can help it. Can't an argument be judged on its merits, as opposed to the credentials of who proposed it? What is 12azor's argument?

I feel like nobody read my post about chess. Competitive chess players must learn to play both sides of the game, why can't CoH players?

And no, I'm not suggesting it should be quantified but it just seems as if people believe mirrors will do x, y, or z, without really knowing what mirrors will actually do. I'm just afraid that they may unnecessarily detract from the atmosphere of the game while having a negligible impact, since I suspect (but don't know) that any effect they'll have will wash out with respect to balance problems, e-sports features, and community support.

Who cares about 2v2 and up? Heck if Relic restricted those to non-mirror I wouldn't care.

The 2vs2 community isn't small, and very well compatitive. Why else would there have been numerous 2vs2 tourneys in the past? ... I would agree that 3vs3 and 4vs4 wasn't compatitive and mainly played by casuals.

I think the biggest number of players who play ranked play 2vs2 xD

I think the biggest number of players who play ranked play 2vs2 xD

Yea b/c it is easier to blame your partner then yourself

Just the fact that Relic still doesn't know if they want to include mirror matches indicates that the game was not designed with them in mind.

If mirror matches include several viable strategies with each faction, as opposed to a race to see who gets the first "Shock Unit X" to decide the game, then by all means include it.

i dont think mirror matches are that bad, it gives you more different gameplays in team games, i tried it in alpha and its not the big deal, sure its not historicly acurate but the gameplay is epic

CoH: Retarded Fronts



As suggested by Tycho

Dude that game looks awesome.

Feynmaniac, if you honestly think chess is a good example of non-mirror matches then you don't really understand the competitive scene in RTS games - chess is oppular for entirely different reasons than RTS games are popular, and even the kinds of people who play both games don't overlap anywhere near 100%. You ask "what is 12azor's argument" as if 12azor and tons of other people haven't given arguments all throughout this thread.

I'm done with the whole thing though because all the arguments for and against have basically been given. At this point it's up to Relic to make a decision to strengthen CoH 2 for competitive play or needlessly damage its prospects to appease people who should really just be playing Men of War or Close Combat or Combat Mission if they care so much about World War 2 reenactment.

i dont think mirror matches are that bad, it gives you more different gameplays in team games, i tried it in alpha and its not the big deal, sure its not historicly acurate but the gameplay is epic

Agreed. I loved in COH how there were not mirror matches, and I was quite hesitant about mirror matches. After playing Alpha I loved them. They add another strategic match. I would rather have mirror matches over some bad OF factions.

The very nice Thing about mirror matches is really speeding up the matching process.
For the rest....
I kept playing the mod from Kolaris, where you could Play vanilla against OF, so Wehr agains PE.....
It was always fun, but it also felt kind of wiered every time. So, I would not put it in. Mirror matches somehow hurt the story of the game. Sounds awkward, but I really feal that way.

Seems like this thread might not need another opinion, but I am pretty much completely in agreement with Yoink.

I might not be able to put it in such a coherent way, but to me the whole historical setting is an important aspect of the game that makes it so enjoyable to me, as I love World War 2.

So all this saying about how the game isn't realistic to begin with and therefore it's okay to have Wehrmacht soldiers shooting at Wehrmacht soldiers for the sake of gameplay is bonkers to me. I think we can acknowledge that there are degrees of realism here (at least that's how I like to see it), and there's just a certain line that shouldn't be crossed if the game is claiming to have any sort of authenticity as a WW2 game.

Even WW2-nuts like me can tolerate whole squads of Knights Cross Holders running around with StG44's on the beaches of Normandy, or airborne guys shooting M18 Recoilless rifles in '44 France (which according to Wikipedia didn't see action until early 1945), or whole Panzergrenadier squads using scoped G43's in close combat, or Grenadiers marching around hip-shooting MG42's all the time like Germanic Rambos. But having a company of Soviet soldiers combat another company of Soviet soldiers is clearly crossing a line that people like me and Yoink would really like to see respected.

I'm thinking we're just a small fraction of people who enjoy CoH not just because of the interesting gameplay mechanics, but also because of all of the artistic effort put into the game that's there for us WW2-nuts to relish in a very fun game to play.

At the same time I get the feeling that most of the high-level players are indeed just playing a "kittens vs. puppies" game as Yoink put it, playing the game purely for the mechanics, which is awesome as long as they still enjoy the game, but whether anyone likes it or not I think people like that are missing half of what CoH is clearly representing; all of that work by the devs to make it the best WW2 RTS game of all time in all aspects, not just the strategy and tactics. To these high-level players I guess having Wehrmacht moon-bases, jetpack-propelled grenadiers, or Soviet bear-cavalries might be just fine as long as it enhances gameplay and is balanced. I myself would just find that difficult to stomach.

To me the names like MG42 team, Ranger squad with Thompsons, and King Tiger have an emotional pull. To me they're not just the tier 1 unit that costs 250 manpower that can instapin a rifle squad, or the US off-map call-in that have good CQB anti-infantry power while sucking against Pumas that cost 400 manpower and 100 ammo, or the strongest tank in the game that you call in for 500 manpower after 9(?) CPs. One of the biggest things that's getting me excited about CoH 2 is being able to see things like the Katyusha rocket trucks in action... you know, actually seeing them rendered in action launching explosive death at German soldiers on a snowy winter battlefield, in the midst of an intense brain-struggle of an RTS game against another person online! I mean where else would you get a combination like that besides CoH? I think it's safe to say that very few people alive now have seen units like that in action, and when they did I can assure you that they did not enjoy any second of it... but we can.. while playing a game we dearly enjoy.

I thoroughly enjoy the historical aspect of the game, and I'll state this blatantly as my own opinion: no facts, no speculation, and no balance arguments, just my feelings. Mirror matching would completely destroy that World War 2 enjoyment I get from playing CoH.

That's all I have to say.

The argument about speeding up the matchmaking process is kind of invalid, because you already have it minutes in coh for most people, which is totally fine i think. For pros it's always going to be a problem, because there are simply not enough players of that caliber. Just look at SC2, people from the top of the ladder in GM or Master usually have to wait longer than everybody else.