Some change for Consript

Cons will most likely get well deserved buffs for their support abilities from the commander patch. Their support currently does not scale wich is weird considering it should be their defining feuture.

I don't think that T4 upgrade help them much. It's almost like run to uphill, where from the start to lategame you must survive until build T4 and get this upgrade. While in the other side you have penals from box, they are work from start to end and have good scale in lategame.
If we want make cons really support unit and keep penals as more expensive offensive unit, we can change cons from terms of resource effectivness, not their battle states. As i suggusted before in previous topics about cons:

1. From 1-st buildnig (T1 or T2) you get global upgrade to speed up reinforce for cons.
2. From medics upgrade you get upgrade on cheaper reinforce for cons (16 mp instead of default 20).
3. Replace flare mine to faster sandbag building.

Their decreased cost and time of reinforce will make ability Merge more attractive to use than now . Fasten sandbag will show them as defensive support unit and help play through T2.
These changes don't make them good fighters, but get to SU player 2 options: openning from cheap and fast to return on battlefield cons (without any real additional investments), or more expensive offensive oppening through penals.

beacause cons is not combat infantry

guards do anything and cons is just capping, meatshield infantry

They do their job well now

u want combat unit, then spam fucking guards ^^

i agree cons buff if guards get some nerf

and delete their own support skill and price nerf

I never said buffs cons in combat please read my comment better. The 7th guys makes them a meat shield, makes merge more ussable, cover bonus makes sandbags a worthwhile choice and actualy allows cons to defend. And stem the horrendues bleed for soviets. This will come from the commander patch.

Right now they cant cap, almost anything forces them off. Merge is a risky ability to often costing you the squad in late game. Oorah is good but only shines with pps,s or at nade.

I don't think that T4 upgrade help them much. It's almost like run to uphill, where from the start to lategame you must survive until build T4 and get this upgrade. While in the other side you have penals from box, they are work from start to end and have good scale in lategame.
If we want make cons really support unit and keep penals as more expensive offensive unit, we can change cons from terms of resource effectivness, not their battle states. As i suggusted before in previous topics about cons:

1. From 1-st buildnig (T1 or T2) you get global upgrade to speed up reinforce for cons.
2. From medics upgrade you get upgrade on cheaper reinforce for cons (16 mp instead of default 20).
3. Replace flare mine to faster sandbag building.

Their decreased cost and time of reinforce will make ability Merge more attractive to use than now . Fasten sandbag will show them as defensive support unit and help play through T2.
These changes don't make them good fighters, but get to SU player 2 options: openning from cheap and fast to return on battlefield cons (without any real additional investments), or more expensive offensive oppening through penals.

This is indeed well thought out.
Sanbags will surely see more use.
Returning the the field will be short and cheap.
However merge will still have a good chance to cost you the squad.
Cons still cost 240 and need 500 mp and 40 fuel to reach this level of support now.

The buffs from the mod allow you to fully recrew team weapons on the spot without loosing the squad.
It allows you to hold the line with cons. Since the maxims supression is pretty meh i like the 7 men cons next to the maxim.
And also cheapens their reinforce cost to 17 mp.

Having free global upgrades that stack on Cons that reflects the growing power of soviet industry and efficiency is an interesting and unique way to buff cons.

I suggest tying the proposed incremental upgrades to each building the soviets construct. This way fast teaching or skipping tiers will not let Cons reach their full potential, while late game they can become quite good, but only if you invest into building all four tech structures.

One building: faster reinforceing
Two buildings: reduced reinforcemt cost from 20mp to 16mp
Three buildings: PPSh upgrade available. 40 munitions for 2 PPShs
All four buildings: 7th man available on reinforcing

Replace doctrinal PPSh upgrade with DP-28 LMG upgrade that is exclusive with the PPShs.

This would also encourage players to back tech to skipped tiers in long games as each tech structure built gives stacking benefits to their core conscript army. This more diverse army with all four tiers is even more suited to a conscript build where using team weapons and various vehicles benefits from the conscript merge ability.

I think it further encourages a player who started with a penal troops opening to build conscripts later in the game. There’s no reason that a soviet player should have to choose only conscripts or penal troops. Every match should have conscripts in it just like every match should have riflemen, volksgrenadiers, infantry sections or grenadiers in it. They’re the CORE infantry, but not the exclusive infantry.

I don't think that T4 upgrade help them much. It's almost like run to uphill, where from the start to lategame you must survive until build T4 and get this upgrade. While in the other side you have penals from box, they are work from start to end and have good scale in lategame.
If we want make cons really support unit and keep penals as more expensive offensive unit, we can change cons from terms of resource effectivness, not their battle states. As i suggusted before in previous topics about cons:

1. From 1-st buildnig (T1 or T2) you get global upgrade to speed up reinforce for cons.
2. From medics upgrade you get upgrade on cheaper reinforce for cons (16 mp instead of default 20).
3. Replace flare mine to faster sandbag building.

Their decreased cost and time of reinforce will make ability Merge more attractive to use than now . Fasten sandbag will show them as defensive support unit and help play through T2.
These changes don't make them good fighters, but get to SU player 2 options: openning from cheap and fast to return on battlefield cons (without any real additional investments), or more expensive offensive oppening through penals.

Merge was never attractive, and it won't even above change. Main reason is after merged, the model/entity retain the model size > 1 (increase chance to be hit). Nobody want to lose their squad because the last retreating model is conscript and die due to some passed by volk.

Merge with shock troop means losing model quickly before shock can get to close range.
Merge with guards? Easier to drop weapon on the ground.
Merge with weapon team? Maxim death loop to remind. Mortar get cut by flanking squad without chance to react, AT Gun become easier target for tank's hull/top gun.

Merge with weapon team? Maxim death loop to remind. Mortar get cut by flanking squad without chance to react, AT Gun become easier target for tank's hull/top gun.

Fyi, weapon team models have higher RA than con models do, so merging actually makes the weapon team more durable.

Not really I did not start with a false premise. I was simply responding to this comment:


Which is simply misleading.

A) Comparing the game with release is simply misleading because the game was broken state at the time. One can claim ostheer where nerfed because Elephant was a stock unit. Comparison with release are rather pointless.

B) Conscript only had minor changes for a long time. The changes in the recent years might have removed cheese from all factions but aimed to buff Conscript not nerf them. Any nerf they might have received was to remove cheese and counterweight they buffs they got.

Anyone who read your quote, even with context will tell you that you are claiming something false. If you say something hasn't happen, any value above 0 to your claim proves what you say untrue.

Using conscripts pass the 20/30 mins mark, without PPSH and/or vet, is fighting with stick n stones.
Conscripts have become weaker since release, and that's either due to the meta or the removal of cheese, which the 2nd means a nerf. It's the same as if we remove the clowncar capabilities of the M3 and gave it a 25% DPS boost and a vet improvement. At the end of the day, that won't cut it.

And this is part of my argument. Instead of buffing other faction to the power level of WFA, it is the WFA that should be brought to power level of vanilla factions.

Which has already been done. You need BOTH NERFs and BUFFs. The nerf wave has already been done, just compare any of the units or factions right now with how they played on release.
Right now, it's easier to brought in line what units remained to lag behind, than trying to rework core units at sensible timings with heavy weight changes.

For ex: i think that Penals/Volks can be touched, but in an indirect way. OKW needs adjustements to initial mp (while you boost it with SwS and they still need a T4 rework) and Penals could see their AT package locked down behind the AT nade on HQ, reducing their effectiveness early on to adapt into AT, while making cons a viable supporting units cause you already bundle the upgrade of both units in the same place.

Anyone who read your quote, even with context will tell you that you are claiming something false. If you say something hasn't happen, any value above 0 to your claim proves what you say untrue.

Using conscripts pass the 20/30 mins mark, without PPSH and/or vet, is fighting with stick n stones.
Conscripts have become weaker since release, and that's either due to the meta or the removal of cheese, which the 2nd means a nerf. It's the same as if we remove the clowncar capabilities of the M3 and gave it a 25% DPS boost and a vet improvement. At the end of the day, that won't cut it.

My original wording might not have been perfect but I have made my point clear:
The claim:

Since release the nerfs are much more then the buffs. If this trend continues, the units will be fighting with sticks and stones

is misleading and the conclusion false. Unless you agree with this claim there is little point in continuing.

I see even see less reason to continue if you are going to use arguments like fixing a bug (8- Dead models were the best scouting tools) or general change effecting all units
(1- Overpowered bulletins (health and damage)) calling them nerfs to conscripts.

Which has already been done. You need BOTH NERFs and BUFFs. The nerf wave has already been done, just compare any of the units or factions right now with how they played on release.
Right now, it's easier to brought in line what units remained to lag behind, than trying to rework core units at sensible timings with heavy weight changes.

For ex: i think that Penals/Volks can be touched, but in an indirect way. OKW needs adjustements to initial mp (while you boost it with SwS and they still need a T4 rework) and Penals could see their AT package locked down behind the AT nade on HQ, reducing their effectiveness early on to adapt into AT, while making cons a viable supporting units cause you already bundle the upgrade of both units in the same place.

That claim is simply wrong:
JLI
Pathfinder
I&R
Assault Engineer
Dozer
250
are all unit that now stronger than when released.

I have to point out again that comparing unit with how they where when released does not really mean anything since many of them where broken when they where released.

snip

-Dead models moving around was not a bug. It was a feature which was used for G43 interrogation ability. Bug referring to an intended behaviour due to unintended combinations of mechanics. Changing a value doesn't sound to me as a bug.
-Damage and health bulletins applying to Cons/Grens only further cemented the meta of mainline infantry spam. Bulletins had too much impact when you knew what to use and when you could stack them as well. It might be a stupid mechanic, but the bulletin system is part of the game. One reason that it made hard to balance other units such as maxims as well.

You may not agree, but Conscripts WERE stronger, due to cheese and broken mechanics, but stronger nonetheless. Removing and nerfing features, even if they are annoying or cheese, it's a nerf. A nerf that even with all the other buffs applied to them, haven't made them as viable as before.
2/4 Conscripts was core. With or without PPSH.


Last point, i was thinking more towards the core of each faction. Because you can name a few doctrinal units (from which i could argue both JLI/AssEng were strong before they nerf/tweak them. 4 G43 squad with armor and flamer/mine/super demo and I&R having a stronger arty offmap) doesn't mean that both the core faction and most power from all doctrinal commanders hasn't been reduced.

I'm sure you could mention a couple more units which were weaker on release than now (P2, Scott) but 90% of the units and abilities were oppresive, OP, broken or cheesy.
Before we end up mentioning every single unit out, i'll remind you that my point is that both WFA and UKF are now WEAKER to how they were released.

You keep saying we need to start nerfing things out. Besides Volks/Penals, what else? You say that WFA/UKF needs to be brought up to EFA levels. I think it has mostly been done already (with both reworks) and nerfs throughout the years. Besides late game stage AI scaling, on which i both agree that it can be slightly touch in case of Bar Rifles and 5 man IS with brens, what else is out of line in your opinion?

....
-Dead models moving around was not a bug. It was a feature which was used for G43 interrogation ability. Bug referring to an intended behaviour due to unintended combinations of mechanics. Changing a value doesn't sound to me as a bug.
...

Call it what it you like but it is not balance issue and imo it is not a nerf since it fixing something that was not working as intended.

Show Spoiler

...
You keep saying we need to start nerfing things out. Besides Volks/Penals, what else? You say that WFA/UKF needs to be brought up to EFA levels. I think it has mostly been done already (with both reworks) and nerfs throughout the years. Besides late game stage AI scaling, on which i both agree that it can be slightly touch in case of Bar Rifles and 5 man IS with brens, what else is out of line in your opinion?
...

I you want me to give you my opinion about balance changes I can do so, but in another thread or a PM.
Have a nice day.

1.Molotov be default ability, no need upgrade at HQ
2.PPSH be default weapon upgrade,after build any 2 HQ（T1+T2 or T1/T2 +T3）unlock upgrade，after upgrade PPsh，Cons can uses “uraaa！” and replace molotov by grenade
3.Commander ability PPsh upgrade replace by 2x can't drop DP,I think DP with prone is more better

Option 1 Agreed.

Option 2 PPSH yes but "Oraah" ability should be removed when upgraded. Molotov should stay since it is a nice feature considering other allied factions have nades already.

Option 3 I am not too sure. I was thinking the default should require to reload more often while the doctrine less often. Make it separable or different from one another in a unique way.

Where did i say buff/change them to be on par with volks rifles etc? People need to stop claiming cons are cheap. Only their reinforce cost is cheap but the high rec acc counteracts that, Their price is not cheap, their tech is not cheap.

And in what world does removing oorah and merge and adding 1 of the worst lmg,s in t4 warrant a prince increase to 260 mp? They still would have short range at nade, wich is weaker without oorah. Lolotov is still pretty bad. And nerf gaurds on top of that.
Its a double nerf actualy.

The new patch will give merge more use, their sandbags more use. You know their supporting abilities are actualy scaling.

I just wish volks couldn+t run directly into their sandbag and still win the fight

I just wish volks couldn+t run directly into their sandbag and still win the fight

Volks should have either their stg,s removed then or their inc nade. The combination of these 2 thing allow them to do that.

Volks should have either their stg,s removed then or their inc nade. The combination of these 2 thing allow them to do that.

just remove volks sbags and that will be enough and some starting MP. Since cons are better at swarming than volks (more per squad, better sbags, more utility, doc upgrades), by just making volks less useful, they both will become equal in game.

I think a price decrease for cons squad is still a good idea. (Maybe make their cost scale up with each squad present, to punish mindless blobbing)

just remove volks sbags and that will be enough and some starting MP. Since cons are better at swarming than volks (more per squad, better sbags, more utility, doc upgrades), by just making volks less useful, they both will become equal in game.

I think a price decrease for cons squad is still a good idea. (Maybe make their cost scale up with each squad present, to punish mindless blobbing)

Indeed removing the sandbags is a good idea. Along with selfheal at vet3.

Or make volks cost more overall. 270/27 for example. Along with increasing the cost for stg,s to 80 muni. Concidering they dont require sidetech or doctrine, cant be dropped, can upgrade anywhere on the field.

Or remove the stg,s and self heal.
Or make volks have a downside to upgrading stg,s unlike now.

And ofcourse if any of these is done the other culprits such as rifles sections penals need a look as well.

Cons spam results in horendous mp bleed, massive muni ussage, and unless going ppsh you will struggle handely in inf engagements.
Cons spam will mostly cost you the game imo. Unlike volks spam.