KV1 and Churchill can take too much damage

Churchill has some unusual values:
Accel: 3.5 simply too high
Rotate: 32 simply too high
Rear Armor: 180 one of the highest in the game
Health: 1400 one of the highest in the game
One of the few tank with stock defensive smoke

In addition:
It has too much shock value.
Lacks a clear role and counter.

My suggestion would be to fix acceleration, rotation and rear.

To reduce shock value by adjusting base and veterancy bonuses so that its get bonuses suitable for the role including HP and Armor.

To give a role to the unit and the right tools for that role. For instance the unit can now both deal with mediums and ATG easily.

A more interesting design imo would be that of infatry support tank.

That would include reducing penetration so that the unit is weaker vs enemy tanks, smoke rounds so it silence hmg, rear smoke similar to the one that was available to commando providing cover status but not cover bonuses so that UKF infatry can fire as if in cover, maybe abilities similar to "Inspire: Infantry"

This design aims to have Churchill soaking damage while infatry dishing out the damage.

...
I mean 50>35. If you spot for them rather than just solo cloak creeping the Churchill still has to drive up to it. But OKW also has jp4.

I would really like some of this theory experts show real footage of the highly convoluted solutions they propose.
Other than that I've see no real answer to Croc+firefly

Churchill has some unusual values:
Accel: 3.5 simply too high
Rotate: 32 simply too high
Rear Armor: 180 one of the highest in the game
Health: 1400 one of the highest in the game
One of the few tank with stock defensive smoke

In addition:
It has too much shock value.
Lacks a clear role and counter.

My suggestion would be to fix acceleration, rotation and rear.

To reduce shock value by adjusting base and veterancy bonuses so that its get bonuses suitable for the role including HP and Armor.

To give a role to the unit and the right tools for that role. For instance the unit can now both deal with mediums and ATG easily.

A more interesting design imo would be that of infatry support tank.

That would include reducing penetration so that the unit is weaker vs enemy tanks, smoke rounds so it silence hmg, rear smoke similar to the one that was available to commando providing cover status but not cover bonuses so that UKF infatry can fire as if in cover, maybe abilities similar to "Inspire: Infantry"

This design aims to have Churchill soaking damage while infatry dishing out the damage.

I think I agree on making it more of a proper "infantry support tank" with abilities. Inspire makes more sense on the church than it does in the KV-2 and kv-8

Outside of repeating like a broken record, we do not have any actual evidence that churchill or kv-1 are not op in any way.

Proving a negative, etc.

I actually _do_ think Churchill is a bit too stronk at the moment, but good logic and all that.

Other than that I've see no real answer to Croc+firefly

Wasn't talking about croc+firefly, as that has nothing to do with a thread about the kv1 and the standard Churchill...

Now we have a threads about the Churchill and KV-1 and it’s just L2P as a response. Seems pretty dumb.

Well I can't speak for everyone, but I hope my answers weren't coming across that way. I just don't agree it's OP. I think if it's health is reduced you need to buff it in a different way.

The JT comparison just doesn't seem valid to me. 2 shotting mediums seems a lot more obviously OP than whatever makes the Churchill too strong

Croc +fly = 2 panther. Remember to aim for the firefly, take out the fly then the croc is your.

Wasn't talking about croc+firefly, as that has nothing to do with a thread about the kv1 and the standard Churchill...

Croc follows the same design as churchills but with a little of balance with regards of its specialty. Croc+firefly it's the worst case since crocs clone the churchill gun, then copies its "slow but heavy" design. If you can tackle that, a single churchill is easy cake.

I still demand an answer other than "okw has jp4". I would prefer to read "I dont care about okw" at least that is honest

PV outranges the tanks with low pen enough for it's armor to matter. PV HP pool is more important than having high armor against TDs. The changes made to the PV in conjunction to buffing it's RoF, made it better against TDs, better at vet 0 and removing the few cases on which the unit would bounce everything or getting destroyed by a few lucky pens.

The problem, PV is costly and it comes up against TD and heavies. Which its armor is not useful. Its rof is still slowest besides the firefly. It has worst moving accuracy for a role it needs to be mobile.

Its hp is not useful alone, since 90 armour cannot defend itself against side shots. It needs something more to stay in close range battle. 1 panther can only deal 160 with reload times. Td already got hp buff and infantry snares. When we encounter heavies like churchill and kv1, it is even worse..

Proving a negative, etc.

I actually _do_ think Churchill is a bit too stronk at the moment, but good logic and all that.

I believe more along that wehr do not have effective counter to it. Elefant helps but still..

I been saying give panther nondoc heat rounds and perhaps pen boost at vet2. It will work better against all allies heavies instead of just weakening Churchill.

Its rof is still slowest besides the firefly.

You WOT m8?

Can we bury the "panther has slow reload" mem already?
It's got literally better ROF than most medium tanks (including Pz4), save for sherman76/M4C. It hs higher rof than firefly, and pretty much matches SU-85. OKW variant can even push the ROF even further with an ability.

Proving a negative, etc.

I actually _do_ think Churchill is a bit too stronk at the moment, but good logic and all that.

Well I was not really trying to make a comment on the state of Churchill.

I was simply demonstrating how weak and no constructive some agreement where.

The "no actual evidence" and "'overpowered' is a completely subjective term" arguments have little place in this thread since they simply question the whole patch balance processes and not the state of the Churchill.
There no actual evidence about many things in the game yet the game is patched, and there are unit that are UP or OP objectively and they are being fixed.

Bottom line is that Churchill current performance can be better designed making the unit more interesting to use and less frustrating to counter.

You WOT m8?

Can we bury the "panther has slow reload" mem already?
It's got literally better ROF than most medium tanks (including Pz4), save for sherman76/M4C. It hs higher rof than firefly, and pretty much matches SU-85. OKW variant can even push the ROF even further with an ability.

Yes it is slow compared to those with TD role, when you consider wind down, tracking and moving accuracy.

Sure it is sightly faster than t34s but that is not saying much. You either come up against 2-3 of them, meaning they have 3 chances against your 1 and with just 90-99 armor now....

Or you don't, Soviet may save for su85,is2 or kv tanks.

As i said, panther is bit of mess as a mobile TD.. doesn't scale well late games against vetted allies TD and heavies, and vulnerable with poorer armor, high hp just means more repair times if it get pen 100% from 90 armor.

Here we go again,this remind me of "Firely v3 can solo panther v3", by mrgame2.
If panther cant scale then i wonder which unit can.

The problem, PV is costly and it comes up against TD and heavies. Which its armor is not useful. Its rof is still slowest besides the firefly. It has worst moving accuracy for a role it needs to be mobile.

Its hp is not useful alone, since 90 armour cannot defend itself against side shots. It needs something more to stay in close range battle. 1 panther can only deal 160 with reload times. Td already got hp buff and infantry snares. When we encounter heavies like churchill and kv1, it is even worse..

You WOT m8?

Can we bury the "panther has slow reload" mem already?
It's got literally better ROF than most medium tanks (including Pz4), save for sherman76/M4C. It hs higher rof than firefly, and pretty much matches SU-85. OKW variant can even push the ROF even further with an ability.

Reminder that PV got seriously RoF buff and that reload is not the only stats which determines RoF.

So Jackson RoF is 6.3s, while the PV is 6.4s. FF is 8s, while Su85 is 5.4s.
PIV RoF is 5.4s. T3485/Comet is 6.15s and E8 been at 6.3s.

That been said: PV behaves in the same way as PGs. The unit doesn't need to be forced in close range battle unless you end up been hardcountered by TDs with 60 range. Against which 1on1 you win by HP pool. Against adv. mediums and heavies, they either don't have the range/speed/HP pool to contest them.

OH PV could use both combat blitz simil boost on vet 1 (RoF or improving accuracy) and something more at vet2 to improve it's offensive capabilities (moving acc) cause it's underwhelming till vet3. Even if the power was on purpose moved from vet2 to vet0.

Here we go again,this remind me of "Firely v3 can solo panther v3", by mrgame2.
If panther cant scale then i wonder which unit can.

I will say it really doesn't.
Combat blitz is very much a passive retreat now, already nerf and further nerfed with infantry snares

Armour skirts doesn't scale against same TD vet, will still get pen left right front back, vet vs vet.
The 99 armour still get pen from non-TD. I mean its not a cheap tank, takes up more popcap than Churchill, you expect it to scale better over med tanks and ATG.
The vet3 reload boost helps but by then, heavy armor allies means it still have troubles pen from max range, still have 50% moving accuracy if you attempt to flank and avoid snares.
It's just expensive for what is poor late game performance in 2v2

Yes it is slow compared to those with TD role, when you consider wind down, tracking and moving accuracy.

I highly advise you install latest patch.
Panthers reload was greatly buffed when it got extra health.
It used to be on the slow-ish side, atm its on med tank level.
Only USF vehicles are supposed to have a decent moving accuracy, so that is not an argument, panther was incapable of shooting on the move at all as it wasn't its role, in coh its the same, its a brawler tank, not skirmisher.

Sure it is sightly faster than t34s but that is not saying much. You either come up against 2-3 of them, meaning they have 3 chances against your 1 and with just 90-99 armor now....

It is saying much, because T34 is a very fast tank and panther is even faster.
Also, where is all of your support?

As i said, panther is bit of mess as a mobile TD.. doesn't scale well late games against vetted allies TD and heavies, and vulnerable with poorer armor, high hp just means more repair times if it get pen 100% from 90 armor.

TDs are not supposed to counter each other.
Panther will never stand up to allied TDs when they have range advantage, because its not meant to.
You'll always outshoot allied TD in 1v1 situation.

Its been long time since coh1, but panther did its job for its price and role than, its armor works, it did not face snares, TD and heavies like now. This is reason why im voicing out.

I don't think panther is that much faster from all games i played, i checked coh2stats and yes im right. speed, acceleration and rotation, no panther is not clearly better. Besides i dont think speed of med tanks is important if moving accuracy is bad and with snares now...

That's why i say panther role now is confused, brawler is not, mobile td is not. Yet it is wehr TD to stand up against heavies, else what is wehr equivalent of a td?

Oh i say panther reload was not 'greatly' buffed, but needed buff after allies td that got greatly buffed

The Panther has speed, a large HP pool, good ROF and accuracy and it is also very decent against infantry with its three MGs. It counters mediums without trouble and it can neutralize or even take on heavies while being much cheaper.

It isn't supposed to fight dedicated tank destroyers, even though it will destroy one in a 1v1 fight.


I can't believe someone would actually argue the Panther needs buffs.

I am still for 2,5 or 5 more range for PaK40. After the critical hit was nerfed this can allows to counter tank hunters. Also since Jackson got more HP I see no real balance problem with that.

At the moment british PaK is more useful, because of its quick setup and has same dps stats as PaK40.

Yes i argue that it needs buff to its gun. HE rounds to trouble allies heavies. Pen increase on vet2. This is to scale late game. It wont matter to allies Td anyway.