Soviet Infantry Design

Soviet infantry is in a strange spot. Long term commander expectations, neglect of conscripts, gimmick doctrines and strange teching have all had a historical impact on what the soviets have, and what roles they fill.

Is this a proposal I expect to get in game? No. But I’ve rolled the idea around long enough that I wanted to formally present it and see what people thought about an overhaul that actually encourages conscript use to align with your commander and tech choices. So here’s something of a summary:


GUARDS
Guardsmen are fantastic at long range combat – and they should be. The most decorated soviet infantry should (and do) bring LMG firepower, decent rifles, and a hit the ground version that offers a boost to their strength at a cost of mobility.

At the moment, they are also capable of snaring vehicles with button, and this works just fine, even if panzer tactitian is cheap as chips by comparison.

Right now, they also have PTRS rifles. This makes them able to snare and kill many light vehicles totally on their own, as well as be a mainline infantry with no real weaknesses. Even CQC squads have to worry about a reasonably potent grenade.

I would remove the PTRS rifles and adjust the guard mosin to compensate – making it similar to conscripts at close range, but with much less drop off over distance.

This would solidify guards as a long range defensive squad, with a clear vulnerability to vehicles and CQC squads. With no AT damage, only buttoning, they cannot function alone against vehicle play.


PENALS
Penals were, in concept, supposed to be assault and demolition troops. Whey they currently actually are is an all-range rifle squad with a great passive combat bonus. There’s almost no need for conscripts if you have T1 right now. I would propose:

Swap the SVT for PPSH. Not shock troop quality, but to make the penal damage output more analogous to USF Assault Engineers or OKW Sturmpioneers. No more using penals as long range firepower.

Change the accuracy bonus from to the last man to more RA and ability cooldown. Allowing them to take more risky pushes to get close and do demolition duties is more important than their raw damage output.

Overhaul the AT package. Giving penals a tank hunter package should totally gut their AI potential. With that in mind – four PTRS rifles will give them next to no AI, as well as make their AT volley do more initial damage. Lowering their PTRS rate of fire will prevent them from dealing too much sustained damage. I would also give them light anti vehicle mines, of the kind available to USF. Soviet T1 needs an AT option, and this should allow that without penals being overbearing.


CONSCRIPTS
Conscripts are already loaded with plenty of utility, and there’s no reason to change their duties outside of combat. They do what they need to just fine in terms of sandbags, grenades and trip mines.

By specialising the role of guards and penals, we open up a window for conscripts to now plug holes in your army composition. This can be easily managed with a selection of weapon upgrades.

Allowing them to choose a weapon upgrade lets your conscripts be better at a certain job to compliment your additional infantry choices. So:

Reduce the veterancy accuracy bonuses on Cons. The default con rifle being so bad but getting huge vet spikes causes big issues with captured weapons. Instead, accept that a weapon upgrade taking up a slot is just the more sensible way to let conscripts scale.

Allow Conscripts to buy 2x PPSH, 3x SVTs, or 2x PTRS. These will not make the conscript unit more powerful than any of the elite infantry options. Shocks and Penals will be better at CQC, Guards better at long range, and Penals or AT guns a much safer bet against vehicles. However, depending on your build choices, conscripts now bring not only versatility but also a little extra punch where your army otherwise lacks it.

Guards can be supported by versatile conscripts who have both utility and some much needed close range or AT firepower.

With the SVT removed from every model of the penal squad, it can also be tweaked into a meaningful moving/mid range firepower upgrade, which will compliment the use of shock troops.

For doctrinal upgrades, these options are replaced with the better commander version. PPSH cons get more PPSHs with the right commander, same for the PTRS in Tank Hunters. Doctrinal versions would occupy both weapon slots.


If you want a good idea of how such a squad would look, feel and play? Go look at Imperial Guardsmen in DoW2. A squad of bad units that had large numbers, varied weapon upgrades, size upgrades, and a lot of utility. I miss those days.

Or just delete Penals. Now they overlap the Conscripts and partly the Guards (I don’t see the Guard at all in team games at the moment, if someone needs PTRS, they just take Penals.)
With your proposal, they overlap the Shock Forces.

- Recruits are renamed to the Rifle squad: they will receive an SVT-40 upgrade and a frag grenade, the merger will be removed, the main infantry
- Guard: ranged combat, anti-tank support
- Shock Troops: CQC assault unit will receive penals explosives.
- Penalties are redundant and overlap units and will overlap units. Transferred to the ability to "rapid conscript" renamed to conscripts and receive a merger and Molotov, become Osttruppen analogue.

No. No. No

Or just delete Penals. Now they overlap the Conscripts and partly the Guards (I don’t see the Guard at all in team games at the moment, if someone needs PTRS, they just take Penals.)
With your proposal, they overlap the Shock Forces.

- Recruits are renamed to the Rifle squad: they will receive an SVT-40 upgrade and a frag grenade, the merger will be removed, the main infantry
- Guard: ranged combat, anti-tank support
- Shock Troops: CQC assault unit will receive penals explosives.
- Penalties are redundant and overlap units and will overlap units. Transferred to the ability to "rapid conscript" renamed to conscripts and receive a merger and Molotov, become Osttruppen analogue.

No guards in team games? T2 into guards is my go to build, and they trash penals at long ranges.

Penals won't overlap with shocks any more than Pgrens and Assault Grenadiers or Stormtroopers. Rangers, Assault Engineers and Cav Riflemen all exist and are seperate too.

One is a utility squad that happens to have close range weapons, one is a beeefy combat monstrosity with a shit ton of DPS and little else but grenades.

Keeping guards as ranged and anti tank at the same time also does nothing to encourage conscript use, because why would you bother with them when guards are better at everyhing?


Even more so, no Penals in T1 with AT reverts to the problems T1 recently had fixed where they had zero AT unless they picked it from a docterine, which throttled variety in builds and commanders into a stale three

"No"

Conscripts need weapon upgrade, whether it's singular LMG or just better rifles for whole squad but they actual weapons to deal damage, as long as they have their joke mosins now they will remain unused because they cant trade with anything including axis mainlines once upgrades kick in

"No"

Conscripts need weapon upgrade, whether it's singular LMG or just better rifles for whole squad but they actual weapons to deal damage, as long as they have their joke mosins now they will remain unused because they cant trade with anything including axis mainlines once upgrades kick in

That is... literally the foundation of what I suggest?

That is... literally the foundation of what I suggest?

No, you're suggesting buffs for cons in exchange for essentialy making Penals something else. Penals work while cons do not, that kind of changes are pointless without any effort to make Cons viable and as we can see from 7th con upgrade - conscript role of being cannon fodder is only being reinforced further.

No, you're suggesting buffs for cons in exchange for essentialy making Penals something else. Penals work while cons do not, that kind of changes are pointless without any effort to make Cons viable and as we can see from 7th con upgrade - conscript role of being cannon fodder is only being reinforced further.

Penals 'work' because they do everything that a mainlìne infantry needs to do. They fight at all ranges, have great damage output and durability, can upgrade to an AT squad and have a neat passive that only makes them better. They have a clore range snare, too.

So long as penals are a better mainline, conscripts will never be a good investment, unless we make them SO good that they replace penals as the new meta and penals promptly get ditched.

They need to have clear, distinct roles to seperate one another and let them do different tasks. Focusing on durability and their demolitions capability means that there's now a reason for Conscriots to exist in the same army.

That's literally the whole point of the thread. Yes, penals work. They had to be what they are because conscripts were awful. Making conscripts work means penals don't need to replace them.

That done, cons can go back to two slots, have some weapon upgrades and become the flexible core of an army.

I said it before - make from cons SU analog of osttruppen with fast and cheap reinforcement. Because all other variants lead to big rework of all SU infantry gameplay.
16MP to reinforce
Fast reinforcement
passive faster sandbag buildinginstead flare mine (SU have enough units with this ability).

Split upgrades:"Cheap reinforce" you get with medic station upgrade. "Faster reinforce" you get with first build building.

This makes cons not generalist mainline unit, but better defense and utility and their ability Merge will be very usefull to reinforce team weapon (16 MP is less than standart 20 from team weapons). SU players get possibility choose between cheap cons and better team weapons play and more expensive offensive penal play.
To make cons more often used, we should make play through them less painfull. In this case from resource side.

This simple approach. Or we just can make full rework with maxims, cons, penals and all elite SU infantry.

I said it before - make from cons SU analog of osttruppen with fast and cheap reinforcement. Because all other variants lead to big rework of all SU infantry gameplay.
16MP to reinforce
Fast reinforcement
passive faster sandbag buildinginstead flare mine (SU have enough units with this ability).

Split upgrades:"Cheap reinforce" you get with medic station upgrade. "Faster reinforce" you get with first build building.

This makes cons not generalist mainline unit, but better defense and utility and their ability Merge will be very usefull to reinforce team weapon (16 MP is less than standart 20 from team weapons). SU players get possibility choose between cheap cons and better team weapons play and more expensive offensive penal play.
To make cons more often used, we should make play through them less painfull. In this case from resource side.

This simple approach. Or we just can make full rework with maxims, cons, penals and all elite SU infantry.

Being able to merge and reinforce with 16 MP is simply OP especially if compare it with the reinforcement prices of 4 men units.

Keep in mind that merging with HMG/Mortars make even more durable.

Soviet infantry is in a strange spot....

Partially agree with analysis of the problem but disagree with the solution.

For instance:
There is little reason for PTRS to be available stock to both Penal and Conscript.

There is little reason for 6 men squad with 4 PTRS especially with nearly 100% chance to hit vehicles and deflection damage by passing to basic mechanics of the game.

The direction should be making each infatry bring something different to the table.

Partially agree with analysis of the problem but disagree with the solution.

For instance:
There is little reason for PTRS to be available stock to both Penal and Conscript.

There is little reason for 6 men squad with 4 PTRS especially with nearly 100% chance to hit vehicles and deflection damage by passing to basic mechanics of the game.

The direction should be making each infatry bring something different to the table.

The whole point of letting conscripts do a little bit of everything is to allow them to fill in gaps in your lineup based on your teching and commander choices. The overlap is intentional, and the elite options will be much more potent at their specialist jobs.

The four PTRS is to address how little alpha damage the PTRS does compared to Zooks or Shrecks. When fighting AT vehicles a single volley is often all you can fire. The reduced RoF stops their DPS from being too high.

Deflection damage IS a basic mechanic of the game and is offset by how garbage the penetrarion on the PTRS is. See also: Bazookas, ISU 152, Brummbar, all artillery, etc.

Being able to merge and reinforce with 16 MP is simply OP especially if compare it with the reinforcement prices of 4 men units.

Keep in mind that merging with HMG/Mortars make even more durable.

But that make cons utility and support, and good with team weapons gameplay. In other cases Merge don't be pleasant for player, it still rare ability for some specific situations. Because right now reinforce cost of cons - 20MP. Cost for maxim -20 and mortar-20. You don't get any bonuses from Merge. Game don't rewarding you. It will be OP if maxim was good. But we all know what maxim is.
If consider current variant with 7-th man and buffs...How supposed to play through cons from early to late, until to T4 (especially versus OKW)? Suffer from MP drain and hoping that enemy will be more noob than you? What if you in hard situation on fuel and can't get your T4 right now? Cons become stone on your neck and much more safety option will be the same penals. It will be more risky opening than good, old penals, without hope get in lategame something powerfull.
That why in my opinion that 7-th man upgrade don't work.

But that make cons utility and support, and good with team weapons gameplay. In other cases Merge don't be pleasant for player, it still rare ability for some specific situations. Because right now reinforce cost of cons - 20MP. Cost for maxim -20 and mortar-20. You don't get any bonuses from Merge. Game don't rewarding you. It will be OP if maxim was good. But we all know what maxim is.
If consider current variant with 7-th man and buffs...How supposed to play through cons from early to late, until to T4 (especially versus OKW)? Suffer from MP drain and hoping that enemy will be more noob than you? What if you in hard situation on fuel and can't get your T4 right now? Cons become stone on your neck and much more safety option will be the same penals. It will be more risky opening than good, old penals, without hope get in lategame something powerfull.
That why in my opinion that 7-th man upgrade don't work.

The claim is inaccurate.

You actually get a bonus for merging with HMG/Mortar:
1) You reinforce on the field
2) You get better target size

The four PTRS is to address how little alpha damage the PTRS does compared to Zooks or Shrecks. When fighting AT vehicles a single volley is often all you can fire. The reduced RoF stops their DPS from being too high.

Moving alpha damage and sustained DPS too far apart is bad in my opinion because it creates "all or nothing" situations, which usually aren't pleasant for either player (your light vehicles getting killed in an instant due to high alpha isn't fun and neither is always seeing your units unable to get a follow-up shot/volley off due to bad ROF).

You'd have to change PTRS accuracy instead, to make the alpha damage of four of them more comparable to Bazookas. Bazookas should deal on average only ~60% of their total potential alpha damage at max range against a light vehicle due to their accuracy, while PTRS currently have 100% accuracy on all ranges (except Cons PTRS versus a Kubelwagen). But 100% accuracy with decent ROF is kinda what makes the PTRS unique. They are good against lights but not good against anything bigger, but that's what the Soviets have good AT vehicles for.

The claim is inaccurate.

You actually get a bonus for merging with HMG/Mortar:
1) You reinforce on the field
2) You get better target size

You totally right. But that calls reward for using utility in other cases why i need cons? We want from them utility andsupport, but main they utility ability to support support weapon from Merging is not rewarding for player right now.
Want more stabile and less painfull play from T2? Use cons. Want more offensive play? Use penals. In this case you have choice.
7-th man upgrade don't give any possibilities for early and midgame, and it also don't make from cons something powerfull.

What we just try to do now, it's make cons stronger by themselves, because everyone knows that cons worse variant gainst germany infantry when mg-42 and stg will come on battlefield.
I suggest make them stronger in pair with support weapon. Where one support other.

I would remove the PTRS rifles and adjust the guard mosin to compensate – making it similar to conscripts at close range, but with much less drop off over distance.

This would solidify guards as a long range defensive squad, with a clear vulnerability to vehicles and CQC squads. With no AT damage, only buttoning, they cannot function alone against vehicle play.

So I'm pretty confused by this proposal. You want to make them a long range defensive squad by removing their PTRS (which perform well at long range and require them to be stationary to fire), giving them more of a rifle with insane moving performance, and nerfing said rifles performance? That just makes them more mobile, and a lot weaker at range.

Like, I'm all for making them less of a generalist anti-everything squad, but your proposed solution doesn't really match your proposed goal.

Change the accuracy bonus from to the last man to more RA and ability cooldown. Allowing them to take more risky pushes to get close and do demolition duties is more important than their raw damage output.

To be fair, the glass cannon niche isn't really common in this game. Falls and penals are probably the only infantry units that fit that design. At the very least, having them be glass cannons keeps them unique. Beyond that, RA doesn't really make sense to me for a squad meant to take losses, that would generally just mean that they become durable and end up not taking losses. It can make you put them into situations with more damage being thrown around, but it probably won't make them riskier to use or make them better thematically. High received accuracy means the squad WILL sustain losses, and to the last man means you at least have some incentive to use them in a way that makes them sustain losses. Again, I'm all for making them more of a high loss squad, but I don't think the proposed solution really pushes that direction. Side note, 4 ptrs would probably too much for reasons that other people have brought up.

Reduce the veterancy accuracy bonuses on Cons. The default con rifle being so bad but getting huge vet spikes causes big issues with captured weapons. Instead, accept that a weapon upgrade taking up a slot is just the more sensible way to let conscripts scale.

Cons accuracy bonuses aren't anything special (its penals that have insane acc bonuses). They get 40% which is relatively common. Its their received accuracy bonuses that are irregularly high. There also isn't an issue with captured weapons because (again) cons accuracy bonuses aren't anything special, they have an accuracy penalty on slot weapons, and they only have one weapon slot (iirc). If you wanted to say that cons need weapon upgrades because them relying on vet bonuses necessarily causes issues, you haven't really established that.

...
There also isn't an issue with captured weapons because (again) cons accuracy bonuses aren't anything special, they have an accuracy penalty on slot weapons, and they only have one weapon slot (iirc). If you wanted to say that cons need weapon upgrades because them relying on vet bonuses necessarily causes issues, you haven't really established that.

Are you sure about the penalty on slot weapons? As far as I know only ostrruppen have one.

Cons accuracy bonuses aren't anything special (its penals that have insane acc bonuses). They get 40% which is relatively common.

Cons actually get 50% accuracy.
40% at standard vet2 and 10% as bandaid fix for making them viable choice without giving them any weapon upgrade at vet3, which obviously failed at serving that purpose.