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russian armor

Universal carrier rework thread

9 May 2019, 01:01 AM
#21
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

There wont be a need to buff back if balance settles in. It's the price you pay for an even and not handicapped game
9 May 2019, 13:10 PM
#22
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260



We are posting survivability for the units

With the kubel nerfs people found it UP (right now there's a thread saying it's too fragile in need of buff), I argue nerfed armour UC will be the same and end up needing to be buffed again


It looks like a big nerf, but in practice it's going from 14% small arms chance to penetrate to 18% chance to penetrate. That's, what, a 4% damage increase versus it?
9 May 2019, 13:42 PM
#23
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

I think it should be a bit more vulnerable to small arms than it is currently now considering it does not cost any fuel and only manpower like Kubel. Maybe increase it slightly more the chances of damaging it with small arms since it feels somewhat impenetrable unless you use Submachine guns.
9 May 2019, 14:30 PM
#24
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 591 | Subs: 1

I think it should be a bit more vulnerable to small arms than it is currently now considering it does not cost any fuel and only manpower like Kubel. Maybe increase it slightly more the chances of damaging it with small arms since it feels somewhat impenetrable unless you use Submachine guns.


The Kubel caps, has shared veterancy, and gets 5 levels of generally fantastic veterancy bonuses to let it do everything from suppress passively to self repair for free to maphack

UC price to repair nerf while the kubel can do it free make brits sad
9 May 2019, 14:56 PM
#25
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783



The Kubel caps, has shared veterancy, and gets 5 levels of generally fantastic veterancy bonuses to let it do everything from suppress passively to self repair for free to maphack

UC price to repair nerf while the kubel can do it free make brits sad


It has not reached vet 3 or any higher in years. Glad they are looking into it now though! Even then the Kubel is the most vulnerable. I would rather trade Kubels armour for more armour like UC does instead for costing me some ammo to repair. Survivability wins over the repair, that makes everyone cry.

Losing Kubel is more likely and evident. Vet bonuses are not great since they come too late, scales bad even. Vet 5 would be like 20 min for Kubel now so that is pretty crap in terms of veterancy bonuses.

UC has already the suppress and repair already in the beginning costing ammo, that is better overall.

Remove bonuses for Kubel with some available upgrades instead. Another thing that makes people sad is "no upgrades".
9 May 2019, 15:49 PM
#26
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

You don't want upgrades on a Kuble because it's too squishy. You gunna dump muni into something that a mine and 2 bullets will kill?

Also the Kuble has fantastic vet, hopefully we get the chance to see some of it now.

As for the UC im undecided about the changes. The armour nerf seems somewhat negligible, but combined with the self repair increase I think it might slow Bren blobs a bit OR just kill the UC off entirely. We will see.
9 May 2019, 16:17 PM
#27
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

Does anyone know when these following changes are going to apply?
9 May 2019, 16:30 PM
#28
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

You don't want upgrades on a Kuble because it's too squishy. You gunna dump muni into something that a mine and 2 bullets will kill?

Also the Kuble has fantastic vet, hopefully we get the chance to see some of it now.

As for the UC im undecided about the changes. The armour nerf seems somewhat negligible, but combined with the self repair increase I think it might slow Bren blobs a bit OR just kill the UC off entirely. We will see.


Yeah. Upgrades wont be that good. Unless....

It is called "KampfKubelWagen", made up name. Providing armour similar to UC stats. MG improved. Takes away ability to cap and map detect. Map detection is replaced with ability "sustained fire" similar to Maxim ability would be great. Ability costs to use, 15 ammo. So this would make it more of a potent combat vehicle early-mid maybe even late game is you decide to choose it. Costs 60 ammo.

That something of an upgrade, is it not?

Otherwise any other upgrade would be deemed useless.

Lets see how the new UC turns out to be. I still think it will be good but not too good as it is currently. At least it is going to still have the kick whilst being slightly more vulnerable which it should be. Self repair price nerf, I do not know about that. Maybe 20 or just the way it was. That is my opinion:romeoHairDay:
9 May 2019, 17:22 PM
#29
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 682



The Kubel caps, has shared veterancy, and gets 5 levels of generally fantastic veterancy bonuses to let it do everything from suppress passively to self repair for free to maphack

UC price to repair nerf while the kubel can do it free make brits sad


Five levels of generally fantastic vet that you could use your cock to count the number of times you've ever actually gotten to it.

9 May 2019, 18:15 PM
#30
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post9 May 2019, 17:22 PMKoRneY


Five levels of generally fantastic vet that you could use your cock to count the number of times you've ever actually gotten to it.


Which, if you care to read at all is why many of us are asking that it be made attainable as a first step to improving the unit.
9 May 2019, 18:19 PM
#31
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833

jump backJump back to quoted post9 May 2019, 13:10 PMLago


It looks like a big nerf, but in practice it's going from 14% small arms chance to penetrate to 18% chance to penetrate. That's, what, a 4% damage increase versus it?


It's not as small as that because it depends on the range and weapon firing, iirc mg42/Kar 98/mp44 etc all have different pen

I think deeper changes are needed, first the balance team added in tech restrictions for bren then removed them as people found it UP. Then muni for repair and reverted

Now armour nerf which imo makes issue two in the OP worse. The unit would be easier to balance locked in T1 with a decent buff.

Another suggestion with the Vickers K is giving it old kubel style suppression cone. I think this could work with a fuel cost on UC and add some diversity to UKF playstyle rather than no brainer "put a bigger gun on top for extra DPS" as we currently have.

9 May 2019, 18:27 PM
#32
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

Compress Vet 5 requirements to Vet 3. Vet Issues fixed.

9 May 2019, 19:14 PM
#33
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

It's not as small as that because it depends on the range and weapon firing, iirc mg42/Kar 98/mp44 etc all have different pen


All small arms (MP40, STG44, Kar 98K, G43) have 1 penetration.
LMG 42 has 1.3/1.2/1.1 pen.
HMG 42 has 2.2/1.8/1.4 pen.

All weapons will only get a ~3-4% increased penetration chance with the armor nerf so the UC will still be able to bully squads, just a little bit less than now.
9 May 2019, 19:41 PM
#34
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833



All small arms (MP40, STG44, Kar 98K, G43) have 1 penetration.
LMG 42 has 1.3/1.2/1.1 pen.
HMG 42 has 2.2/1.8/1.4 pen.

All weapons will only get a ~3-4% increased penetration chance with the armor nerf so the UC will still be able to bully squads, just a little bit less than now.
Vs the MG42 it's pretty much changed engagements you can argue putting the armour down to kubel levels. The armour a year or so ago used to be 10? Around same as FHT. WASP was OP then but I would argue it was the range and old dot damage more than armour.

But it's a pretty major change taking away one of the perks of armour it had over other lights. I think it feels too fragile (especially vs MG42, what's the point of AP rounds if vanilla bursts can tear up a UC?) but that's what this thread is for.

Discussion and input for the mod
9 May 2019, 19:46 PM
#35
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post9 May 2019, 13:10 PMLago


It looks like a big nerf, but in practice it's going from 14% small arms chance to penetrate to 18% chance to penetrate. That's, what, a 4% damage increase versus it?

That's not how % works.
It will be penetrated 28% more often by pen 1 small arms, more then that when HMG and LMG shoots it.
9 May 2019, 19:59 PM
#36
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

At least it is going to be penetrated more often. I feel that it is being more balanced with it being more vulnerable to small arms. It is currently strong at bleeding manpower. It should retrospectively be able to take damage also. Instead of holding ground most of the time able to take hardly any damage from 2-3 Volks squads for a vehicle that costs no fuel and bleed manpower easily in the beginning.

It should remain strong in killing power but the small arms should have more chances in penetrating/damaging UC. I do not think I agree with increasing the cost of repairs. Maybe by 5 only. 10 is kind of much unless it heals all the way through.
9 May 2019, 20:04 PM
#37
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

Vs the MG42 it's pretty much changed engagements you can argue putting the armour down to kubel levels. The armour a year or so ago used to be 10? Around same as FHT. WASP was OP then but I would argue it was the range and old dot damage more than armour.

But it's a pretty major change taking away one of the perks of armour it had over other lights. I think it feels too fragile (especially vs MG42, what's the point of AP rounds if vanilla bursts can tear up a UC?) but that's what this thread is for.

That's not how % works.
It will be penetrated 28% more often by pen 1 small arms, more then that when HMG and LMG shoots it.


1 pen weapons have their chance to pen increased from ~14% to ~17% or a ~20% increase.
At max range against an HMG 42 it will take 20% more damage per burst, so it will still take 4-5 mid-long range bursts to take down a UC, as opposed to over 6 bursts it takes right now. Its effective HP versus small arms fire goes from 1678 to still 1395.
(for comparison, the M3A1 Scout Car has 1081 effective HP and the Kubelwagen has 727 HP).

I'd hardly call that 'fragile', personally. Especially for a unit that doesn't cost any fuel.

9 May 2019, 20:07 PM
#38
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

UC are pretty durable, getting nerfed about that is not the end of the world for them. Its like nerfing FHT DPS, they still have a lot.
9 May 2019, 20:12 PM
#39
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

UC are pretty durable, getting nerfed about that is not the end of the world for them. Its like nerfing FHT DPS, they still have a lot.


I still think FHT require slight range improvement or damage. It is for its timing not so great. Needs some slight improvements for its timing.
9 May 2019, 20:19 PM
#40
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 591 | Subs: 1

I don't MIND that it got a nerf to its armour so much. It makes the upgrades a much more suspect deal, but hopefully they will allow it it to have the old values back after it upgrades? I can dream.

The bit that I object to is that is has less armour, so takes more chip damage, and ALSO they made self repair more expensive for some BS 'gotta trade with fausts' when button and smoke have been unbalanced for so long

Brits dont start with engineers

Brits can't BUY engineers without unlocking a tech tier

The latter makes it totally worthless to buy a UC before you have T1. And as an ultra light, there's no point buying it then anyway.

There's so little reason now to ever do anything besides buy an extra section and bolster before you T1.
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