Ostheer Core changes commander Revamp Patch
4 May 2019, 00:28 AM
#21
Posts: 3260
To be honest? After playing around with Jae's Ostheer build, I think PGrens are fine with the new changes. No radical overhaul needed.
4 May 2019, 09:19 AM
#22
Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3
Only changes that Ostheer needs at the moment is imo:
- Lock Pgren Schrecks behind the T2 building or require T4 tech, to delay Schreck into T3 rush. You can choose for early Schrecks with the T2 building, or later Schrecks with T4 tech, exposing yourself to early light vehicles.
- Something to make the Mechanized Assault Group more unique, now that it's just a late 250 with Pgrens you could've made from the HQ.
- Lock Pgren Schrecks behind the T2 building or require T4 tech, to delay Schreck into T3 rush. You can choose for early Schrecks with the T2 building, or later Schrecks with T4 tech, exposing yourself to early light vehicles.
- Something to make the Mechanized Assault Group more unique, now that it's just a late 250 with Pgrens you could've made from the HQ.
4 May 2019, 09:52 AM
#23
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
Finally the chances in scatter have also decreased the chance of Ostwind getting collision hits.
Would you mind explaining that? Because unless I'm wrong, lower scatter means more chance to still hit shots that are 'misses' because the missed shots don't get spread out as much.
4 May 2019, 10:01 AM
#24
Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3
The buffed Ostwind only got better against vehicles:
- Reloads less frequently (= buff vs vehicles)
- Lower cooldown between shots (= buff vs vehicles)
- Reduced scatter, so more chance to hit when accuracy shots fail (= buff vs vehicles)
Maybe Vipper means scatter offset? The scatter offset going from 0,29 to 0 means the scatter shots land 14,5% closer. A scatter offset at 0 means scatter shots are aimed at an immobile target / the center. (I think this is how it works).
- Reloads less frequently (= buff vs vehicles)
- Lower cooldown between shots (= buff vs vehicles)
Maybe Vipper means scatter offset? The scatter offset going from 0,29 to 0 means the scatter shots land 14,5% closer. A scatter offset at 0 means scatter shots are aimed at an immobile target / the center. (I think this is how it works).
4 May 2019, 10:15 AM
#25
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Would you mind explaining that? Because unless I'm wrong, lower scatter means more chance to still hit shots that are 'misses' because the missed shots don't get spread out as much.
Collision hit are easier to achieve the longer the projectile travels or they can fall sort.
By reducing the scatter distance and offset the chance of scoring a collision hit is reduced especially when moving. Keep in mind that the low accuracy of the Ostwind vs light tank makes it relay on collision hits to actually land them.
This affect can easily be seen by the high distance scatter ATG guns have.
Examples
Panther:
Scatter
Distance offset 0.25
Distance ratio 1
Distance max 8
Su-85
Distance offset 0.25
Distance ratio 1
Distance max 7.5
PzIV
Scatter
Distance offset 0.25
Distance ratio 1
Distance max 6.4
Scatter
T-34/76
Distance offset 0.25
Distance ratio 1
Distance max 6.9
By lowering scatter to from 7.1 to 5.25 one is actually lowering the chance to get collision hits especially vs fast small targets.
One can easily increase the accuracy of the Ostwind and/or the reduce the moving penalty to score more "natural" hits even if doubled I doubt it will make any difference in its AI role.
4 May 2019, 10:34 AM
#26
Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3
[...]
I can understand why a low scatter offset is worse for hitting moving targets, but why would a lower scatter distance be bad?
I visualize it like this:
Is that correct?
4 May 2019, 10:49 AM
#27
Posts: 1217
What exactly does the passive vet 1 do now?
I can imagine some nice 251 + PGren strats right now with the aura + reinforcement. Replace with a command P4 later and you have quite a decent force.
I can imagine some nice 251 + PGren strats right now with the aura + reinforcement. Replace with a command P4 later and you have quite a decent force.
4 May 2019, 10:56 AM
#28
Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3
What exactly does the passive vet 1 do now?
I can imagine some nice 251 + PGren strats right now with the aura + reinforcement. Replace with a command P4 later and you have quite a decent force.
+ 20% movement speed (they walk faster while still being able to fire, slower than sprint)
- 10% RA
I don't know exactly how close pgrens have to be to a vehicle for it to kick in, but it's pretty close.
4 May 2019, 10:58 AM
#29
Posts: 50
What exactly does the passive vet 1 do now?
I can imagine some nice 251 + PGren strats right now with the aura + reinforcement. Replace with a command P4 later and you have quite a decent force.
+20% movement speed and 0.9 recieved accuracy.
I thought the 251 strats would be cool too, but it's still pretty hard to pull off due to how fragile and slow they are, I found p4s better suited for this role, while a 251 could still be waiting in the rear to reinforce.
4 May 2019, 11:19 AM
#30
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
I can understand why a low scatter offset is worse for hitting moving targets, but why would a lower scatter distance be bad?
I visualize it like this:
Is that correct?
Not completely correct.
Offset is the distance where the shot actually aim.
If the there is zero off set the shot will aim exactly on target if there is an offset the shot will aim beyond the target.
Scatter Distance max it the longest length the projectile will travel beyond its aim point.
If you are shooting at static targets this will make little difference but if you are shooting at moving target it makes allot.
By the time one's projectiles reaches the aim point the target has moved so unless it can cover the extra distance (iow high scatter distance max) the shot can fall sort and land before reaching the intended target.
Scatter distance max is good vs fast moving targets, neutral vs slow moving target and bad vs non collision target.
some info on scatter can be found here :
https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/231279/a-guide-to-d-p-s-basics
4 May 2019, 12:12 PM
#31
Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3
Not completely correct.
Offset is the distance where the shot actually aim.
If the there is zero off set the shot will aim exactly on target if there is an offset the shot will aim beyond the target.
Scatter Distance max it the longest length the projectile will travel beyond its aim point.
If you are shooting at static targets this will make little difference but if you are shooting at moving target it makes allot.
By the time one's projectiles reaches the aim point the target has moved so unless it can cover the extra distance (iow high scatter distance max) the shot can fall sort and land before reaching the intended target.
Scatter distance max is good vs fast moving targets, neutral vs slow moving target and bad vs non collision target.
some info on scatter can be found here :
https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/231279/a-guide-to-d-p-s-basics
Edit. Nvm, this would be more logical:
4 May 2019, 12:45 PM
#32
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
So it would look like this:
The scatter area has quite a different shape check link pls.
4 May 2019, 12:55 PM
#33
Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3
The scatter area has quite a different shape check link pls.
I'll read it. Thank you.
4 May 2019, 13:26 PM
#34
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
I'll read it. Thank you.
Glad that I could be of help.
There is sketch at in the last post with the scatter area.
4 May 2019, 14:15 PM
#35
Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3
Glad that I could be of help.
There is sketch at in the last post with the scatter area.
Ok, I've read the part about scatter and it definitely proves max scatter distance (and scatter offset) are important values for hitting backpedalling targets.
The low max scatter distance and 0 offset mostly hurt the Ostwind when chasing, because its low accuracy makes it rely on scatter shots. The change gives its scatter shots a Brummbar effect of sorts (which also has 0 offset and low max scatter distance).
Wouldn't that make increasing the moving accuracy of the Ostwind to ≤75% the cleanest solution, instead of adjusting its armor or target size like you suggested? Granted we want to keep its current performance against infantry, while keeping the same performance against moving vehicles as it is now.
4 May 2019, 14:53 PM
#36
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Ok, I've read the part about scatter and it definitely proves max scatter distance (and scatter offset) are important values for hitting backpedalling targets.
The low max scatter distance and 0 offset mostly hurt the Ostwind when chasing, because its low accuracy makes it rely on scatter shots. The change gives its scatter shots a Brummbar effect of sorts (which also has 0 offset and low max scatter distance).
Wouldn't that make increasing the moving accuracy of the Ostwind to ≤75% the cleanest solution, instead of adjusting its armor or target size like you suggested? Granted we want to keep its current performance against infantry, while keeping the same performance against moving vehicles as it is now.
My suggestion is from live:
1) Increase AI capability consistency.
Instead of the changes that increase AI DPS increase the chance to do damage (one might have to change the damage from AOE to accuracy or closer to T-70)
2) Increase resilience
3) Increase performance vs light vehicles. (one might have to add AP rounds)
4) normalize AA performance across vet levels.
In other words instead AI glass canon with a Shock value that diminish in time, increase the utility and resilience of the unit making it a solid investment for all stage of the game.
The current approach can prove problematic especially when hull down.
4 May 2019, 16:32 PM
#37
Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3
My suggestion is from live:
1) Increase AI capability consistency.
Instead of the changes that increase AI DPS increase the chance to do damage (one might have to change the damage from AOE to accuracy or closer to T-70)
2) Increase resilience
3) Increase performance vs light vehicles. (one might have to add AP rounds)
4) normalize AA performance across vet levels.
In other words instead AI glass canon with a Shock value that diminish in time, increase the utility and resilience of the unit making it a solid investment for all stage of the game.
The current approach can prove problematic especially when hull down.
Thank you for elaborating.
1&3: These are mostly accomplished with the changes. I also would've preferred a rework to an accuracy-based gun like the Centaur, because it's easier to balance (so no need to handicap it with an AoE model limit). The changes do their job however. I feel it could still use a moving accuracy buff if the scatter change turns out to have hampered the Ostwind's ability at chasing light vehicles and the faster rof hasn't made up for that.
2: I don't feel like that is needed. It's speed makes up for its large target size and low armor (if we compare it to the Centaur). At most it could get target size reduction with vet, (no armor considering there's no model with side plating).
4: Agreed, however with the AA and rof buff it wouldn't matter much anyway, it has great AA performance at all vet levels now.
4 May 2019, 18:05 PM
#38
Posts: 607
Giving the Ostwind a direct anti-LV buff would come dangerously close to making the same mistake that was done with the M-42.
4 May 2019, 18:08 PM
#39
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Giving the Ostwind a direct anti-LV buff would come dangerously close to making the same mistake that was done with the M-42.
Don't worry, if that happend, we could then always completely gut the buff, making it semantical buff only and increase units cost by 20% to balance it all out.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
5 May 2019, 08:46 AM
#40
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Giving the Ostwind a direct anti-LV buff would come dangerously close to making the same mistake that was done with the M-42.
The suggestion is to lower its AI and increase it anti LV increasing utility.
One could even add a different firing mod for that balancing the 2 fire mod separately.
The current performance of Ostwind vs moving light vehicles is rather poor.
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