Conscript vs. Gren matchup

the squad size of the conscripts makes sure that 3/6 of the members of the squad are not in cover, resulting in a gren win nine times out of ten.

just a reminder that these units cost the exact same, are build around the same time, but grens are pretty much a guaranteed win

Why is this okay?
equal cost = equal fighting efficiency.

sure there is the Molotov upgrade, but why should i have to burn fuel to make my troops efficient, delaying my t-70, while Germans can capture the entire map with their same cost but ultimately superior force and start spamming their p4's?

lets talk about late game!
a vet 3 conscript squad will lose to a vet 3 grenadier squad, quite hilariously, their vet 2 armor buff is ridiculously strong and will melt anything short of a vet 3 squad of shock troops.

you know this problem exists, its not a THEORY, or a SOVIET FANBOY WHINE, its a problem in the game and nothing is being done to fix it.
(i play both factions equally http://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198016893993)

what can we do to fix this? soviets are currently a joke

I don't agree with first statement. I play Soviets as well, and somethimes I win / sometimes I lose vs grens..

Large part of it is RNG

Veterancy, sure. Vet 3 conscripts can hardly hold their own vs Vet 1 Gren, let alone Vet 3.

I think Relic is redesigning Veterancy for next patch...

Vet for both units at vet 3 is the exact same.

Vet for both units at vet 3 is the exact same.

true, now that I think about it. It has more to do with German using ammo more freely by that time (rifle nade vs molotov)

Than again, I go purely by my own experience of the game

P.S. I might exagerated a bit with vet 3 vs vet 1...

I've been noticing this too in casts, streams, and my own play. Unless you get some early vehicle dominance, playing the infantry game against Germans is a losing battle.

Toss in MG42 support, properly used, and it gets worse.

LMGs have the ability to quickly kill individual squad members with its high localized damage, meaning to charge in to throw those equalizing petrol bombs causes both a manpower and munitions drawn.

The situation gets worse when PGrens hit the field in force since charging in is no longer an option.

I do think concripts still work great up close, but the problem that by a certain time in a match, getting close, even with Oorah, becomes a losing proposition against a half-way prepared enemy.

I don't agree that conscripts will always lose vs. grens.

I think the real issue here is the LMG upgrade, but since the LMG only fires when the model is not moving, molotov is a good way of countering it, forcing the grens to move thus making it unable to fire the LMG but it's still too powerful in my opinion.

Yes molotov will obviously delay your tech, but if it allows you gaining ground and map control, then it's a wise investment and will actually help you tech faster and delay your enemy's tech.

Another solution, although it's not a permanent one, is the PPSH upgrade. This upgrade with the hit the dirt option, makes the conscripts a useful unit even during the late game and can even handle pgrens if used properly.

I don't use it often, but you can also try using sandbags at points near your base, not in the middle of the map because your opponent can use it against you.

Personally I think in early game it's basically even.

The only real decider without vet 2 or lmgs or something is that because grenade warnings are bugged and riflenades do much more upfront damage and are harder to predict than a molotov, it takes much better unit awareness for the Soviet player. I think just fixing the riflenade warning would actually be a big net improvement for the balance.

OPs post is incredibly full of misinformation.

If you have false premises, you will come to false conclusions.
Correct your premises, and you wont conclude there are "problems" where there actually arent any.

You have to spend fuel to get molotov, the germans have to spend fuel to get BattlePhase1 to get LMGs (and rifle nade? I forget at the moment). Therefore, most likely, soviets will get molotov before BP1.

Now, yes BP1 is Teching and is moving the german player to the next teir and "has to do this". Then, my argument is: you do not HAVE to get molotov. If you capp aggresively and make your opponent move and make a quicker T1 or T2, you have the opportunity to save your 25fuel, using it for a quicket T1/T2. Now, this is a different tactic and as molotovs do help in Building play (as there are not many things that remove inf from buildings, especially as germans [but i guess that is why mortar shots can crit buildings into collapsing]).

Now when the germans do get BF1 and start nading and LMG'n you to death, then I agree with "Zero7": Getting a ppsh upgrade, HTD, Shock, guard, and even mortor will help against the investment the german is putting in their grens.

I am kinda getting tired of the Conscripts v gren matchup posts when they are almost completly even in dmg & abilities; and IMO, Conscripts are ALOT more "versitile" and not just straight dps (commander abilties make their play alot different than, LMG for EVERYONE! [oh and maybe g43, lawl]).

Also, sandbags are awesome; I myself and my most recent game against a soviet, built sandbags in a position on both fuel points to where he maximized the use of them. When defending/assulting the fuel point,the german player, nor I, could not get equal cover, thus losing in a fire fight or "wash" in a LMG v. Green Cover fight.

I've noticed after that last patch that without the old health bulletins conscripts die quite quickly when engaging grens, and are more likely to be lost when retreating after a failed flank, as pathing in this game is awful(as well as blobbing). I personally would like to see a small health increase on the conscripts(or return of health bulletins) so they don't die so quickly in the game. I've also noticed one on one with both in cover that conscripts usually go down to 3 men and then get a crit or two on the gren squad, with gren squads usually coming up on top with 2-3 men.

@kinganj- I don't believe Germans need bp1 for Lmg upgrade.

I just have a question. Even without the upgrade, grens have 4 models with more armor vs cons with more and less armor. Doesn't this mean grens on average do more damage and gain vet at a higher rate?

@kinganj- I don't believe Germans need bp1 for Lmg upgrade.

I just have a question. Even without the upgrade, grens have 4 models with more armor vs cons with more and less armor. Doesn't this mean grens on average do more damage and gain vet at a higher rate?

no. xp is based on unit cost. killing 4 gren entities = killing 6 con entities in terms of xp.

I think the fix is to get another option not to simple buff or add to conscripts. Decrease build time on T-1 to .25 of its current amount (giving far earlier access to penals). Increase cost of Soviet sniper to 400, and increase build time of clown car 10 seconds. This would actually allow penals to be used in a window before pgrens show up and own the show.

I think the fix is to get another option not to simple buff or add to conscripts. Decrease build time on T-1 to .25 of its current amount (giving far earlier access to penals). Increase cost of Soviet sniper to 400, and increase build time of clown car 10 seconds. This would actually allow penals to be used in a window before pgrens show up and own the show.

Snipers are not worth 400 mp. Too much for a unit that can be wiped out with a single rifle nade.

@Wooof - thx for the answer.

I think the fix is to get another option not to simple buff or add to conscripts. Decrease build time on T-1 to .25 of its current amount (giving far earlier access to penals). Increase cost of Soviet sniper to 400, and increase build time of clown car 10 seconds. This would actually allow penals to be used in a window before pgrens show up and own the show.

Are you just trolling here? Your idea to make Penals better is to nerf the other T1 units? The M3 already has an extremely small window in which it is useful so increasing its build time as a way to make Penals "better" is bizarre.

If the production time was 1/4 its current time building it immediately would be viable and since soviet snipers perform moderately well at the current state it would deter people from just spamming out snipers after a quick build as it is a 2 man unit and T-1 german prior to t-2 german would have a vast advantage. The Scout car addition in build time would be a moot point as the production of the building would be accomplished at a much faster rate.

P.S. I might exagerated a bit with vet 3 vs vet 1...

no kidding, all vet 1 offers is the healing ability. there's no difference otherwise|

Does anyone even use the heal ability? I haven't seen a single person do so, especially since it takes 2 units.

I wouldn't object to a more useful Vet 1 ability for Grens.

Does anyone even use the heal ability? I haven't seen a single person do so, especially since it takes 2 units.

I wouldn't object to a more useful Vet 1 ability for Grens.

Considering the trip flare for conscripts is equally useless, I'm fine with medi kits.

Medi Kits can be useful when you have a heavily damaged squad that still has all of its men and you don't want to retreat it (e.g. a Pak crew). It has a very niche use and most of the time the medic bunker is better in the long run.

The trip flare is awesome, most people just don't realize it.

None of both is a balance problem though. Maybe a slight cost reduction for the medi kit or something but there really is no pressing issue with both (e.g. dominating meta).