Ostruppen seriously

Hey blovski I'll try to throw in my 2 cents on how to combat ostruppen, although I am not the greatest sov player.

On building heavy maps get the heavy doctrine mortar, great vs buildings (quick flamer for super early game/molotovs). I have a more general idea on how to combat ostruppen however. Since you know you don't have as much capping power, secure one side of the map as best you can then start being offensive. That means massing your forces around 1 fuel and 1 muni.

If he is getting ostruppen you know he is most likely going fast t2 so either go guard doctrine to combat the scout cars and flamers OR what I do is get at nades and the shock troop doctrine. I want to combat those pgrens best I can, and at nade gives me some defense against t2 germ vehicles. I also build the at gun,mortar, and mg building.

So say I do lose my map control and his tanks are out before mine (which is always the case for me) I can buy time defensively until I get tanks, getting t34 or su85 entirely up to you.

Sometimes I win sometimes I lose, but my outcomes are not based on an OP doctrine. I will agree that increasing cool down on call-in would be nice.

+1 and the faust ability is needed imo.

4) further questions for the people who think it's balanced right now:
a) what do you do to counter it on a map like Semois or Kharkov which is heavy on buildings? have you had any success on these maps against players who are just as good as you Ostruppen spamming?
b) what is your recommended counter?
c) at the earliest time your recommended counter can hit the field, assuming even map control, how many Ostruppen squads can be on the field?
d) what is the cost of your recommended counter (include the manpower cost of T1 or T2 if you have to build that straight off the bat...) - how many Ostruppen units does it cost?

Answered many of those questions already.... Ugh

Ocupy buildings before them?
Then cap with a second squad...

Answered many of those questions already.... Ugh

That was aimed at Moeser and Appleseed, not you (because they were just saying 'it's fine' without actually engaging). I appreciate your response - so far I've managed against fast halftracks, it's the fast Ostwind that bothers me, and a lot of really good players seem to struggle against it. What do you do if you see the Bartonian Ostruppen backed by snipers, out of interest? That seems really tough to deal with if the Ostheer player's any good.

I don't know, since I haven't played that much with or against Osttruppen, but purely from their stats they seem extremely cost efficient.

For 240 MP, you get units with 576 effective HP (20% more than Conscripts) and potential DPS equal of 80% of Conscript potential DPS (without cover - it's up to 160% if all squad members would be in cover).
They are obviously more vulnerable to splash/explosive weapons (due to lower HP of a single entity).

Still, it's only a "paper" look on them - they might work somewhat differently in game than their stats would suggest.

EDIT: Fixed DPS values.

I don't know, since I haven't played that much with or against Osttruppen, but purely from their stats they seem extremely cost efficient.

For 240 MP, you get units with 576 effective HP (20% more than Conscripts) and potential DPS equal of 160% of Conscript potential DPS (without cover - it's up to 320% if all squad members would be in cover).
They are obviously more vulnerable to splash/explosive weapons (due to lower HP of a single entity).

Still, it's only a "paper" look on them - they might work somewhat differently in game than their stats would suggest.

The fact that they have more and cheaper models also makes them LESS susceptible to splash since you lose less MP for a given grenade.

Even at 1/2 capping speed, they are still far more effective at capping than anything else in the game since travel time is more of a factor than capping speed.

They need a bigger nerf.

In my honest opinion, the Ostruppen killed the whole character of the German side.

In COH1, you have Volks which aren't good as mainline Grens but could still hold their own against early American Rifles and wasn't spammable.

Now, with the side that's supposedly more well known for being well equipped, you now have a spammable unit that is cannon fodder and also costs a lot less that conscripts...

@hubewa: Frankly, osttruppen are what conscripts should have been (+ Oorah) and conscripts are what osttruppen should have been (- Oorah).

I share the opinion of Link0 and Blovski in that they need a different nerf especially with regards to garrison synergy, but let's not get too carried away with nerfing this (or any) unit. Relic's nerf bat is pretty heavy.

Let's look at the Su-85 for example: first nerfed focused sight speed, which was a fine nerf on its own. Then, they nerfed overall speed, but did not change the focused sight speed nerf to compensate, so now focused sight mode is essentially useless unless you have a spare Su-85 or are feeling particularly safe in which case you must be stomping pretty hard. Same thing happened with Maxim/MG42 when they were both nerfed into oblivion at some point.

We should suggest nerf tradeoffs, rather than stacking nerfs to a unit (because it'll probably end up being near useless with the way Relic typically goes at it).

I propose a manpower increase (maybe 160?) and a much longer ability cooldown to reduce spam, but change capping speed back to normal to avoid them being nothing but weapon crewers.

I don't know, since I haven't played that much with or against Osttruppen, but purely from their stats they seem extremely cost efficient.

For 240 MP, you get units with 576 effective HP (20% more than Conscripts) and potential DPS equal of 160% of Conscript potential DPS (without cover - it's up to 320% if all squad members would be in cover).
They are obviously more vulnerable to splash/explosive weapons (due to lower HP of a single entity).

Still, it's only a "paper" look on them - they might work somewhat differently in game than their stats would suggest.

dont forget about this!

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they have a constant .5 accuracy multiplier. so when theyre in cover, they have the accuracy that is listed for their weapon, not double accuracy.

4) further questions for the people who think it's balanced right now:
a) what do you do to counter it on a map like Semois or Kharkov which is heavy on buildings? have you had any success on these maps against players who are just as good as you Ostruppen spamming?
b) what is your recommended counter?
c) at the earliest time your recommended counter can hit the field, assuming even map control, how many Ostruppen squads can be on the field?
d) what is the cost of your recommended counter (include the manpower cost of T1 or T2 if you have to build that straight off the bat...) - how many Ostruppen units does it cost?

Semois map is one of the most unbalance map in my eyes as top side fuel point is very easy to defend. Kharkov on the other hand didn't got much play on that map (only 1 game and i wasn't using Ostruppen) so no comment on that
i do had few rounds fight with Ostruppen on Semois, but as usually i won if i spawn top side and lose if i spawn lower side. i am agree that fighting Ostruppen from house to house is pain. from my experiences fighting Ostruppen summer maps i like use FHQ or 120mm commander and anti infantry during winter.

I normally use Maxim (3-4 of them）Spam with 2 flame engineer and 2-3 conscript (build before i saw enemy using Ostruppen) to clear the house advance and back up by AT guns, again i don't need worry about MG42 or mortars when fighting Ostruppen because they don't build those then see how things goes. the Ostruppen player i counter don't feel that good because they don't bring much other infantry out (except officer that really not enough in my eyes) to backup Ostruppen, if they spam trench is actually what i like to see just Molotov and trench is mine

i won't say i am good at Ostruppen spaming. i am still trying to find a way to play it comfortable with Ostruppen. a problem with Ostruppen spaming is to know how much to spam, few games i had over 15 Ostruppen (i think) on the field but it give me the feeling that i am overwhelmingly winning until soviet bring out their 120mm, guards or shocks. even Ostruppen are cheap but i still bleed out MP to hold my army large then got into that part i am low on MP to bring out enough better troops like pgren and tanks with all the fuel and mu. i find hard to bring out panther in late game with this commander and couldn't bring out pgren and p4 fast enough. right now i am usually spam like 10 of them then start having pgrens to hits the field.

i hope this answers the questions

I've never had a problem with ostruppen. This is because if I see even one I go shock army.

ppsh and shock troopers cut through them like butter.

Heavy mortars make sure they can't stay still making them completely useless and artillery will do the same even better. Not to mention destroying all those trenches.

If there is such a thing as a counter doctrine, this is it.

^^^Shock army mixed with scout car flamers to deal with sniper + ost??

I cant answer that because i have never gone against it. Sounds incredibly annoying though. Oorah toward sniper and drive him off field? occupy more key buildings to keep sniper casualties low?

I've never had a problem with ostruppen. This is because if I see even one I go shock army.

ppsh and shock troopers cut through them like butter.

Heavy mortars make sure they can't stay still making them completely useless and artillery will do the same even better. Not to mention destroying all those trenches.

If there is such a thing as a counter doctrine, this is it.

The problem with that advice is, that all those tools only arrive later. The problem with the osties seems to be in the very early game.

And THERE you have barely any counters.

Excuse my supposition, but shouldnt Maxims be extremely effective vs Ostruppen builds?

I understand there is a timing problem, but with the halved capping time, if you can just hold out long enough to get them, shouldnt you be able to completely cripple his Osty spam?

From my limited nooby perspective, I think Maxims and MG42s are very underplayed atm, especially Maxims which are so solid in buildings cos a) they turn and fire very quickly b) ost has trouble vs buildings (especially with Osty spam and no RNade).

A single burst is generally enough to suppress now from Maxim.

Im against the full 4-5 Cons AND Gren builds I see anyways.

More experienced players may know better, but Im convinced every build should include atleast one Support team, in almost every case, for both Sov and Ost. 3 Cons/Grens/Ost max, and the 4th a Support team.

If the current meta indeed really, seriously, favors, Con/Gren/Osty spam this much, that should be addressed in someway, because its cutting the whole substantial and extemely interesting, varied and crucial Support element out of the meta and reducing tiering and progression to base infantry directly to t3 armor.

dont forget about this!

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they have a constant .5 accuracy multiplier. so when theyre in cover, they have the accuracy that is listed for their weapon, not double accuracy.

I should have checked their abilities myself, rather than rely on your spreadsheets
I'll edit the older post.
It's much more sensible now.

The fact that they have more and cheaper models also makes them LESS susceptible to splash since you lose less MP for a given grenade.

Even at 1/2 capping speed, they are still far more effective at capping than anything else in the game since travel time is more of a factor than capping speed.

They need a bigger nerf.

That might be true, but since they have lower HP per entity, it usually also means that all explosions kill all entities in 50% bigger radius, which is especially dangerous when faced with a 120 mm mortars or similar weapons.

Excuse my supposition, but shouldnt Maxims be extremely effective vs Ostruppen builds?

I understand there is a timing problem, but with the halved capping time, if you can just hold out long enough to get them, shouldnt you be able to completely cripple his Osty spam?

From my limited nooby perspective, I think Maxims and MG42s are very underplayed atm, especially Maxims which are so solid in buildings cos a) they turn and fire very quickly b) ost has trouble vs buildings (especially with Osty spam and no RNade).

A single burst is generally enough to suppress now from Maxim.

Im against the full 4-5 Cons AND Gren builds I see anyways.

More experienced players may know better, but Im convinced every build should include atleast one Support team, in almost every case, for both Sov and Ost. 3 Cons/Grens/Ost max, and the 4th a Support team.

If the current meta indeed really, seriously, favors, Con/Gren/Osty spam this much, that should be addressed in someway, because its cutting the whole substantial and extemely interesting, varied and crucial Support element out of the meta and reducing tiering and progression to base infantry directly to t3 armor.

I could see maxims working on a fairly open map. They're also what HelpingHans, who's using a lot of Ostruppen trench creep at the moment, advocates. On a map like Semoskiy the Ostheer player will have 5-7 Ostruppen sat around in buildings by the time a maxim can get out. And then once the Ostruppen hit 1 cp and can trench up your maxims are never going to push them back.

My theory about the current meta is that con spam lets you get an early T-70 which counters gren spam, while gren spam with LMGs counters con spam if you can handle the early T-70 or get a P-IV early enough. So, it's more or less a pair of strategies designed to counter each other. There are definitely other options against these two strats though, so I'm not too fussed by them.

Ostruppen spam is kind of a different beast to those imo, on account of the sheer amount of early capping power, squads to pop in buildings and so on seems to pose a lot of problems for a fast T1 or T2 start and also gives you slightly better map control than and, as Tensai's stats seem to indicate, at least equal firepower to a pure conscript start. Better if used well. It seems to me like going for Ostruppen massively expands the number of strategies a German player can use (really fast HT with muni cache, quick P-grens, quick scout car spam, fast Ostwind with fuel cache, supporting MGs and trench creep, unusually early bunkers on some maps without sacrificing map control) while really limiting the number of options the Soviet player has to counter them.

My thoughts on the change:
Personally I don't think the capping speed was ever the problem with the unit - the biggest balance problem early game is that on a map like Semois you could have an Ostruppen squad in just about every major building within a few minutes and a second squad capping the point it defends, which is going to be the case as long as they persist with the 120mp, 0cp, really fast cooldown paradigm (which it sounded from the balance stream like they wanted to keep). In general it seems like the cost effectiveness of Ostruppen is still seriously good. Additionally, a change to their capping speed seems basically redundant as long as they can build trenches in non-owned territory while capping and then cap from inside the trenches as soon as they get 1cp.

My preferred solution would probably be making them 1cp (and trenches 2, redistribute resources 3 etc.) so they don't fuck up the faction design in the early game and mess up building-heavy maps. Since that's obviously not going to happen, if they were 180mp, 15 reinforce, same stats, normal capping, trenches fixed, they'd still give a big capping power edge but not be quite as cost effective as conscripts or grens (having twice the number of units/potential map presence and identical cost effectiveness just seems too good) unless paired with an officer or entrenched. Or if there was a minute cooldown or so so they'd have to be backup rather than mainline units and building up a force of 6-8 of them with plenty of vet bonuses would take time and good unit preservation. All of those seem like options that'd go some way towards fixing the fundamental problem, while this change seems to kind of hedge between making sure Ostruppen players don't have a major tangible nerf to complain about and having something to hold up as a change.

tl/dr: being able to have twice as many units and also be equally if not more cost effective is OP. That needs to change. I don't really get what the capping change solves.

I just played against Barton's ostruppen to sniper to T2 build. It's incredibly hard to beat. Ostruppen are the perfect capers and are incredible meat shields at allow snipers to run amok.

Even my tanks don't do much to ostruppen that can be cheaply reinforced with a HT and just camp corners to faust me all over the place with a Pak to finish.

Excuse my supposition, but shouldnt Maxims be extremely effective vs Ostruppen builds?

I understand there is a timing problem, but with the halved capping time, if you can just hold out long enough to get them, shouldnt you be able to completely cripple his Osty spam?

Nope. The problem here is extremely simple.

If you start building T2 straight at the start of the match, your first maxim will be facing 5 osttruppen squads alone. Good luck with that.

If you start building T2 after getting say 3 conscript squads, your 3 conscript squads will be facing however many osttruppen the axis guy wants to have (probably 6-7) and getting the shit beaten out of them unless they're in buildings (which they shouldn't have because every single aspect of the matchup favors the osttruppen gaining the buildings). After your first maxim is out the flameht that is always around the corner when against osttruppen is also out within 1 minute and will make it completely impossible to use the maxim except when surrounded by conscripts, which doesn't let you gain any map control whatsoever back.

Even ignoring the flameht, it's extremely easy to flank the maxims with cheap squads like osttruppen unless you can get it in a building to get rid of the motorcycle turning and give it some durability against squads just circling around it.

Im against the full 4-5 Cons AND Gren builds I see anyways.

If the current meta indeed really, seriously, favors, Con/Gren/Osty spam this much, that should be addressed in someway, because its cutting the whole substantial and extemely interesting, varied and crucial Support element out of the meta and reducing tiering and progression to base infantry directly to t3 armor.

For germans MG42s are not favored because frankly you need several to get actual squad control out of them, having only one MG42 just means you have an easy-to-abuse weak point in your army against an equal number of conscript squads. 2 MG42s limits your offensive capability immensively so you might as well go for grens especially considering how powerful they are compared to what volks were like.

For soviets maxims are underplayed because 1. they're hilariously weak against T2 vehicles, you're quite literally fucked the moment a flameht shows up if you've invested in more than one maxim squad. A 80mp scout car also counters lone maxims that aren't in buildings (and even ones that are in buildings though much slower...) so hard it hurts if your opponent doesn't want to use muni for some reason. 2. the T2 building builds painfully slow 3. the hilariously small cone means that they are extremely easy to flank, especially when coupled with the horribly slow turn rate on them (motorcycle turning code). People like to claim maxims are so good because they have such a short setup time, but to be honest in any direction except directly forwards the MG42 sets up just as fast. And of course against players playing ostheer normally there's the "riflenade flank" where you fire off a riflenade when you see the maxim and just walk the rest of the way up to them.

I think you are "hilariously", "horribly", "painfully", and "extremely" understating Maxims, as well as presenting long drawn out and contrived scenarios that don't actually obviate the point, but rather obscure it under a massive stack of situational circumstances that are not objective, but rather a scripted re-enaction the only purpose of which fictional existance, is to superficially "support" your point full of hyperbole.

Dont build Maxims then. Not my problem.