Raketen Cloaking and its justification.
15 Apr 2019, 15:52 PM
#1
Posts: 48
I'm curious about community input for the stock ability to cloak rakens. Is this because they're the weakest of the AT guns? Lowest range? Had a few rounds of 4v4 where I felt this mechanic was a little exploited. I think it's weak that a player can cloak, get within inches of my armor surprise volly with multiple raks and then insta retreat. It may be the retreat that tilted me the most. You don't even need to support them when doing this. "whoops, you spotted me right up on your lines, We'll just escape and try again". I know other AT guns can do it, but that comes with a commander(if I'm not mistaken) and comes at a price. If you try to creep that close, there is no retreat panic button. I'm not calling for wholesale changes, just curious the viewpoint of those that justify this cloak/retreat abilities to give me another perspective.
15 Apr 2019, 16:59 PM
#2
Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1
You are correct - the problem not just in one feature, but in combination of three:
- cloak (no way to spot other than proximity or recon plane AFAIK)
- ability to move while cloaked
- ability to retreat if spotted or caught with pants down
When you play OKW you hate Rak because of how susceptible it is to AoE (tight crew formation) and to small arms fire (short range).
When you play against OKW you hate Rak because reasons stated above.
In my personal opinion there is no reason for Rak to be able to move when cloaked.
OKW mains will come here ask for a buff "to compensate" for removal of this ability.
I bet there will be talk about how Rak unlike other AT guns doesn't provide green cover, but that cover bonus is buggy as hell and works only from certain angles to AT gun. IIRC this behavior was researched by Elchino. So in fact Rak's low survivability to small arms comes only from exposure to them because of short range.
- cloak (no way to spot other than proximity or recon plane AFAIK)
- ability to move while cloaked
- ability to retreat if spotted or caught with pants down
When you play OKW you hate Rak because of how susceptible it is to AoE (tight crew formation) and to small arms fire (short range).
When you play against OKW you hate Rak because reasons stated above.
In my personal opinion there is no reason for Rak to be able to move when cloaked.
OKW mains will come here ask for a buff "to compensate" for removal of this ability.
I bet there will be talk about how Rak unlike other AT guns doesn't provide green cover, but that cover bonus is buggy as hell and works only from certain angles to AT gun. IIRC this behavior was researched by Elchino. So in fact Rak's low survivability to small arms comes only from exposure to them because of short range.
15 Apr 2019, 17:04 PM
#3
Posts: 956
Yeah, remove movement while cloaked and then it can either get a better range or a fifth man for the crew
+ better formation is a no- brainer one way or another
+ better formation is a no- brainer one way or another
"Nice. Very impressive. Now let´s see Paul Allen´s playercard."
15 Apr 2019, 17:06 PM
#4
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
You are correct - the problem not just in one feature, but in combination of three:
- cloak (no way to spot other than proximity or recon plane AFAIK)
- ability to move while cloaked
- ability to retreat if spotted or caught with pants down
When you play OKW you hate Rak because of how susceptible it is to AoE (tight crew formation) and to small arms fire (short range).
When you play against OKW you hate Rak because reasons stated above.
In my personal opinion there is no reason for Rak to be able to move when cloaked.
OKW mains will come here ask for a buff "to compensate" for removal of this ability.
I bet there will be talk about how Rak unlike other AT guns doesn't provide green cover, but that cover bonus is buggy as hell and works only from certain angles to AT gun. IIRC this behavior was researched by Elchino. So in fact Rak's low survivability to small arms comes only from exposure to them because of short range.
Actually Rak's dies to easily to both small arm and explosions since the crew is to close together.
About the ATG shields:
The cover might only work occasionally but I have seen tank shots colliding with the shield and thus protecting the crew.
15 Apr 2019, 17:13 PM
#5
Posts: 1660
You are correct - the problem not just in one feature, but in combination of three:
- cloak (no way to spot other than proximity or recon plane AFAIK)
- ability to move while cloaked
- ability to retreat if spotted or caught with pants down
When you play OKW you hate Rak because of how susceptible it is to AoE (tight crew formation) and to small arms fire (short range).
When you play against OKW you hate Rak because reasons stated above.
In my personal opinion there is no reason for Rak to be able to move when cloaked.
OKW mains will come here ask for a buff "to compensate" for removal of this ability.
I bet there will be talk about how Rak unlike other AT guns doesn't provide green cover, but that cover bonus is buggy as hell and works only from certain angles to AT gun. IIRC this behavior was researched by Elchino. So in fact Rak's low survivability to small arms comes only from exposure to them because of short range.
"In my personal opinion there is no reason for Rak to be able to move when cloaked.
OKW mains will come here ask for a buff "to compensate" for removal of this ability."
No, there's no need whatsoever.
I also propose to replace the rocket with potatoes that do 20 damage and have 5 penetration because raketen is clearly known to be super Opie Opie.
"So in fact Rak's low survivability to small arms comes only from exposure to them because of short range."
It comes from the gun crew formation being ultra tight.
15 Apr 2019, 17:17 PM
#6
Posts: 3260
AT gun camo in general is a frustrating feature for all involved because it reduces the vehicle's speed to a crawl. You can't shift queue the camo, so you have to tell the AT gun where to go, wait for it to get there, then issue the cloak command.
It'd be way more user friendly if the gun passively cloaked itself when stationary and out of combat for a few moments.
Compensate with a wider arc of fire given this is meant to also be OKW's LV counter.
It'd be way more user friendly if the gun passively cloaked itself when stationary and out of combat for a few moments.
Compensate with a wider arc of fire given this is meant to also be OKW's LV counter.
15 Apr 2019, 17:24 PM
#7
Posts: 4474
pak 38 form v coh, said enough
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
15 Apr 2019, 18:20 PM
#8
Posts: 3145 | Subs: 2
15 Apr 2019, 18:20 PM
#9
Posts: 264
Yeah the RAK is annoying to fight, and it's annoying to use.
It should be like the Goliath. It only stealths in cover, maybe it can still move.
But if we're making the rak ANY better, I'd say it can't move while stealthed. It moves decently fast, and I feel in large games the Rak-pack needs 3-4 and you're just obliterating allied tanks and it's sort of how you deal w/ them as OKW until you get a Panther out? Pz4 can slug it, but ideally you want some hard TD. JP4 is nice, but you need a good infantry killer.
So you build the rak pack. Listen Raks are pack animals, they need to form close bonds with one another to effectively fight. The form a family use, it's a beautiful thing to watch a Rak pack hunt, even if they are dispeciable creatures. I think we can all agree, nobody wants them.
It should be like the Goliath. It only stealths in cover, maybe it can still move.
But if we're making the rak ANY better, I'd say it can't move while stealthed. It moves decently fast, and I feel in large games the Rak-pack needs 3-4 and you're just obliterating allied tanks and it's sort of how you deal w/ them as OKW until you get a Panther out? Pz4 can slug it, but ideally you want some hard TD. JP4 is nice, but you need a good infantry killer.
So you build the rak pack. Listen Raks are pack animals, they need to form close bonds with one another to effectively fight. The form a family use, it's a beautiful thing to watch a Rak pack hunt, even if they are dispeciable creatures. I think we can all agree, nobody wants them.
Axis biased, Allied biased. Play every faction before you scream nerf, be a Coh2 player not an "Axis" or "Allied" player.
Playercard: 76561198006693960
Playercard: 76561198006693960
15 Apr 2019, 18:22 PM
#10
Posts: 3260
If you make Raks need cover to stealth, they'll hit that cover whenever they fire scatter shots. That's why they cloak in the open in the first place.
I'd happily ditch moving cloak in exchange for reliability buffs. There's a good unit in the Raketenwerfer somewhere, but at the moment it's frustrating for everyone.
I'd happily ditch moving cloak in exchange for reliability buffs. There's a good unit in the Raketenwerfer somewhere, but at the moment it's frustrating for everyone.
15 Apr 2019, 18:28 PM
#11
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
To me the ability to retreat+cloak is still problematic, even if you remove the creep. It might have less protection but you can just retreat if you get caught out of position. All other AT guns that's a death sentence
To me you can make the Rak a better AT gun if you make it play by AT gun rules
To me you can make the Rak a better AT gun if you make it play by AT gun rules
15 Apr 2019, 18:28 PM
#12
Posts: 1660
If you make Raks need cover to stealth, they'll hit that cover whenever they fire scatter shots. That's why they cloak in the open in the first place.
I'd happily ditch moving cloak in exchange for reliability buffs. There's a good unit in the Raketenwerfer somewhere, but at the moment it's frustrating for everyone.
Nothing can be done, the profile of the unit will always cause reliability issues.
15 Apr 2019, 18:30 PM
#13
Posts: 264
I think if we let Raks stealth but not move, and decreased the setup/aim time you could have a unit that performs well but can get the heck out of dodge when it needs to.
This also may come with removing it's ability to retreat.
-Moving Breaks Stealth
-Can't Retreat
-Increase firing arc
-Decrease setup time
-spread the crew out/5th man
The only reason raks make it to the late game is the stealth mechanic, they die super easy to anything. So you need to do something to help it's survivability if we nerf how useful it's stealth/retreat is.
This also may come with removing it's ability to retreat.
-Moving Breaks Stealth
-Can't Retreat
-Increase firing arc
-Decrease setup time
-spread the crew out/5th man
The only reason raks make it to the late game is the stealth mechanic, they die super easy to anything. So you need to do something to help it's survivability if we nerf how useful it's stealth/retreat is.
Axis biased, Allied biased. Play every faction before you scream nerf, be a Coh2 player not an "Axis" or "Allied" player.
Playercard: 76561198006693960
Playercard: 76561198006693960
15 Apr 2019, 18:30 PM
#14
Posts: 3260
Nothing can be done, the profile of the unit will always cause reliability issues.
I'm talking a wider firing arc and/or better accuracy here. Maybe something like the 6-pounder's accuracy bonus vs light vehicles, or a Vet 0 first strike bonus.
15 Apr 2019, 18:36 PM
#15
Posts: 1660
I'm talking a wider firing arc and/or better accuracy here. Maybe something like the 6-pounder's accuracy bonus vs light vehicles, or a Vet 0 first strike bonus.
Ok, but it will still hit the ground the moment there's cover or minimal elevation. Such thing can't be fixed.
15 Apr 2019, 18:42 PM
#16
Posts: 264
Ok, but it will still hit the ground the moment there's cover or minimal elevation. Such thing can't be fixed.
Crew props it up on a box first. SOLVED.
Axis biased, Allied biased. Play every faction before you scream nerf, be a Coh2 player not an "Axis" or "Allied" player.
Playercard: 76561198006693960
Playercard: 76561198006693960
15 Apr 2019, 18:44 PM
#17
Posts: 1660
If OKW had reliable and decently efficient at stock Infantry like it was meant to rely on, but similar to Panzergrens 2 shreck, Raketen itself may even lose the ability to move when cloaked even without getting buffs, lose some mp cost and be the at stopgap support it was meant to be by design.
But again, at this state, Cloaketen is staying this way.
But again, at this state, Cloaketen is staying this way.
15 Apr 2019, 18:45 PM
#18
Posts: 264
Maybe the easiest stop gap is to remove retreat but give it a 5 man crew.
It performs very well when I steal them as the soviets ,6 man crew seems OP, but maybe 5 would spread them enough that indirect fire isnt a problem ,but you'll want to run if you see small arms coming your way.
It performs very well when I steal them as the soviets ,6 man crew seems OP, but maybe 5 would spread them enough that indirect fire isnt a problem ,but you'll want to run if you see small arms coming your way.
Axis biased, Allied biased. Play every faction before you scream nerf, be a Coh2 player not an "Axis" or "Allied" player.
Playercard: 76561198006693960
Playercard: 76561198006693960
15 Apr 2019, 18:46 PM
#19
Posts: 4474
take the pak 40 at gun , call it pak 38, lower pen, add first strike bonus and soviet stealth, done fixed rakt
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
15 Apr 2019, 18:52 PM
#20
Posts: 3260
Ok, but it will still hit the ground the moment there's cover or minimal elevation. Such thing can't be fixed.
It can be mitigated by better accuracy though. Accuracy shots that roll a hit pass through obstacles. It's scattershots that hit objects.
take the pak 40 at gun , call it pak 38, lower pen, add first strike bonus and soviet stealth, done fixed rakt
If anything, the Soviet AT Gun stealth is even more frustrating to use than the Raketenwerfer stealth.
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