Falls should need munition to upgrade fg42

I just told you the practical purpose, not being ready to wipe things so easily. Falls drop zone is WAY more precise than airborne so it's a lot easier to drop them in behind the lines.

And the squad size isn't the reason for that difference, because the Soviet airborne drop is more precise too. Unless it's been changed since i last tested it

They arnt insta pop and wipe units though. Usf pay because their Thompsons come with a great ability and their LMGs are monsters ONTOP of being able to reinforce on the field although I could get behind a price reduction for both, especially the Thompsons given the Soviet guards ppsh being free. Could you imagine dropping falls on a beacon and constantly reinforcing them in combat? Would be nasty business.
Soviet are emerging from a cloud of smoke so the wipe potential would be enormous if they spawned with weapons.

Falls are the least durable of the airborne but start the best equipped nerfing then on principle to be like the others when they are not like the others hardly seems reasonable.
I don't know why they need to be delayed in power until after the drop. If they are too spooky for you when they drop you could simply increase the time it takes to drop instead of removing a unique and not unbalanced feature "just because" them starting ready to go isn't a balance issue, not like people drop them right on the front anyways...

Also @SCB they actually dropped with a smaller magazine that didn't stick out past the mag well, I think it was 5 or 10 rounds but they did have the gun with them, it was purpose built for that. Not that it matters in the course of balance... Granted if a 4 man squad armed for bear on the front for the cheap cheap cost of one of the most expensive squads in the game OS indeed OP I guess we could try spawning them with half a magazine for shits and see how that plays out. Forcing a reload so you have more time figure out what happened after that plane that dropped them behind the lines means.

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Did you see the idea vipper and I discussed? What about buffing them and making them require a munitions upgrade? I don't have a problem with their power overall, I just don't like its shock value.

I feel like it's better for the squad too if they sacrifice shock value for a net overall improvement

Did you see the idea vipper and I discussed? What about buffing them and making them require a munitions upgrade? I don't have a problem with their power overall, I just don't like its shock value.

I feel like it's better for the squad too if they sacrifice shock value for a net overall improvement

Makes falls 5 man squads but also 5 useless man squad. Also worth noting, two FG42 instead of 4 would mean the gun DPS will be buffed and basically youll get paradrop grens with 2 instead of 1 LMG that fires on the move and is effective at close range too. I would bet a leg you dont want that.

Falls shock value is pretty contained, its by no means OP and maybe we should let it end there. Apart from that the only change i would like to see the ability cooldown and cost increased 60-75% but two squads paradrop instead of one. This nerf+buff discourages spamming falls, makes them harder to call and forces the player to choose very well where to use them, losing both fallschm squads could mean loosing the game

Did you see the idea vipper and I discussed? What about buffing them and making them require a munitions upgrade? I don't have a problem with their power overall, I just don't like its shock value.

I feel like it's better for the squad too if they sacrifice shock value for a net overall improvement

I dont see the "shock value" in them. They need to air drop in and I have not in my days seen them dropped into combat. They are always behind the line and moved up. I don't see a reason to remove one of the only remaining high risk high reward units. Now that they can't spawn from buildings with fg42 they are no longer cheesy and the commander is already thirsty enough without throwing on a munitions cost just cause. I definitely don't want yet another boring 5 man squad. They are elite, the feel elite and they bleed like elite infantry. A cheaper 5 man squad with 2 fgs sure sounds alot like better volks, and fuck that shit.

Falls are fine as is

I dont see the "shock value" in them. They need to air drop in and I have not in my days seen them dropped into combat.

It's not about dropping them into combat it's about dropping them behind it and kiting things on retreat. I do this with commandos all the time cause the glider is easier to call in to the FoW. But it can be done with falls too

I doubt it would happen in 1v1 but in team games theres a lot more space to drop them behind enemy lines.

A cheaper 5 man squad with 2 fgs sure sounds alot like better volks, and fuck that shit.

Well thats not what we were talking about. It was going to be more expensive and stronger. Not cheaper an weaker. Same MP cost with a munitions upgrade, and a buff.

I would much prefer that we do bot raise the DPS of one of the highest DPS squads in the game if that's okay with you.

Much rather it was a drop with a carbine or smg and they had a free upgrade to FGs, like the way Stormtroopers spawn.

Not that I think Falls should be nerfed or anything (I think they are fine now), but where did the whole "glass" thing came from? 4-man with 0.83 RA is hardly "glass", even if they don't win any durability contests they are not THAT far behind PGrens and whatnot.

I mean "cannon" is obvious, squad with 4 BARS is nothing to sniff at.

When they arrive, 0.83 RA is shit. Panzergrens get 0.8 at start and it improves with vet

It's not about dropping them into combat it's about dropping them behind it and kiting things on retreat. I do this with commandos all the time cause the glider is easier to call in to the FoW. But it can be done with falls too

I doubt it would happen in 1v1 but in team games theres a lot more space to drop them behind enemy lines.



Well thats not what we were talking about. It was going to be more expensive and stronger. Not cheaper an weaker. Same MP cost with a munitions upgrade, and a buff.

If the player is floating a few hundred mp to call a squad in behind a retreat and risk there being something there I think they deserve the wipe. Same thing with a commando glider. You earned that wipe.

Stronger falls doesn't make any more sense than weaker ones. They are already good enough as is, changing them up to make them less rewarding when utilized expertly but more difficult to use poorly is a bad direction.

Like I said earlier, if you are afraid of their starting dps and want to nerf them based on that and rob them of their unique and elite status and turn them into Uber volks (5 man squad with 2 automatics, just scaled up) why not try starting then with a half mag so they have to reload sooner.

They are great units that don't see a lot of use because they take a bit of attention to get their value for cost out. I don't want to see them become a mainline replacement in larger longer games. As now they act more like JLI probably should--alone as ambush troops, not as a ball of fuck you.

It's not about dropping them into combat it's about dropping them behind it and kiting things on retreat. I do this with commandos all the time cause the glider is easier to call in to the FoW. But it can be done with falls too

I doubt it would happen in 1v1 but in team games theres a lot more space to drop them behind enemy lines.



Well thats not what we were talking about. It was going to be more expensive and stronger. Not cheaper an weaker. Same MP cost with a munitions upgrade, and a buff.

I actually agree with this. 5 men 400mp Falls that spawn with ass grens mp40 and that can buy 2 slightly buffed fg42 may be a decent tradeoff.

You want a 5 men lategame squad that bleeds more and had snare ? Or a better dps squad with more resilient models, no snare, booby trap ?

That's actually way better than the current state, with Falls being poor man's Obers.

Obviously Camo should be removed, and i think that's ok because Jaeger already suits the role of ambush unit much better.

LOL - try playing Soviets for once!

i did but i dont like free win

I would much prefer that we do bot raise the DPS of one of the highest DPS squads in the game if that's okay with you.

Their DPS is quite bad actually. The only thing they have going for them is that their mid range DPS (20 range) is relatively high but that drops by 25% whenever they lose a model. Close range Rangers have almost twice as much DPS, IR STG44 Obers have about 1.3 times as much. Long range they get outperformed by LMG Obersoldaten/Paras. Mid range is the same DPS as LMG Obers, but then they drop DPS way faster in a fight.

Besides having a somewhat unimpressive DPS curve (for an elite squad) they really suffer from the same problem Panzergrenadiers suffer from: losing 25% DPS per model drop.

Like I said earlier, if you are afraid of their starting dps and want to nerf them based on that and rob them of their unique and elite status and turn them into Uber volks (5 man squad with 2 automatics, just scaled up) why not try starting then with a half mag so they have to reload sooner.

They are great units that don't see a lot of use because they take a bit of attention to get their value for cost out. I don't want to see them become a mainline replacement in larger longer games. As now they act more like JLI probably should--alone as ambush troops, not as a ball of fuck you.

See I would argue they're not used because they're just worse Obers. AI specialists that are less survivable, only real combat difference is the snare. Falls have good dps at all ranges but they pretty much need to keep the distance anyway because of how squishy they are

I view camo for them as being sory of like the rak43. Their survivability is so crap they need a trick to help them stay alive. It's not cheesy like Rak camo, I just mean it's reason for being there is similar

See I would argue they're not used because they're just worse Obers. AI specialists that are less survivable, only real combat difference is the snare. Falls have good dps at all ranges but they pretty much need to keep the distance anyway because of how squishy they are

I view camo for them as being sory of like the rak43. Their survivability is so crap they need a trick to help them stay alive. It's not cheesy like Rak camo, I just mean it's reason for being there is similar

And 5 man super volks will kill Obers. Players want what's easy.

Their camo really works well with their good at all range dps because they can ambush and do well and not lose all their output when the enemy retreats like commandos. Falls arnt bad, they just arnt the typical "attack move" infantry that the okw likes to host so much. The game should have MORE squads like falls (ones with risk associated to the reward instead of holding their hand across the map and stacking their DPS on a couple of models) so that we can out the tactical back into the tactical rts genre. As exciting as stg volks and double bar rifles and 5 man double Bren tommies are I don't think we need anither variation on the literal exact same thing but slightly different, in the proposed case being "the literal exact same thing but like... Stronger"
I want some diversity. I want units that are fun. I don't want more plain Jane vanilla matchups.

The game should have MORE squads like falls (ones with risk associated to the reward instead of holding their hand across the map and stacking their DPS on a couple of models) so that we can out the tactical back into the tactical rts genre. As exciting as stg volks and double bar rifles and 5 man double Bren tommies are I don't think we need anither variation on the literal exact same thing but slightly different, in the proposed case being "the literal exact same thing but like... Stronger"
I want some diversity. I want units that are fun. I don't want more plain Jane vanilla matchups.

Okay well I can agree with all of this, but now it's a little idealistic for me. I agree the design of volks and Rifleman is boring, I think half of their respective faction design is boring even after all the changes we've gotten, but its what we have.

Falls can reward great tactics or they can get instantly deleted because your opponent got lucky (moreso than most elite squads).

"the literal exact same thing but like... Stronger"
I want some diversity. I want units that are fun. I don't want more plain Jane vanilla matchups.

That's an unfair way to characterize what I'm saying man. If you're gonna expand the conversation to this large a scale then it's kinda worth pointing out I'd want volks to be different. I really think they should of been balanced without a weapon upgrade after schrecks failed. So there wouldn't be this overlap with falls if you're going to talk about entire faction designs

Like you're telling me they'll overlap with volks, who I'm fairly certain you agree punch above their weight. There's a lot going on here that confuses me

I dont see the "shock value" in them. They need to air drop in and I have not in my days seen them dropped into combat. They are always behind the line and moved up. I don't see a reason to remove one of the only remaining high risk high reward units. Now that they can't spawn from buildings with fg42 they are no longer cheesy and the commander is already thirsty enough without throwing on a munitions cost just cause. I definitely don't want yet another boring 5 man squad. They are elite, the feel elite and they bleed like elite infantry. A cheaper 5 man squad with 2 fgs sure sounds alot like better volks, and fuck that shit.

1000 Times this. Falls are unique elite units and there's no need to change that. If they need a buff, adjust their RA.

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its just boring is all.
new fussiliers are even bring yet another 5 man, double upgrade unit to the fold. at this point might as well just start with "infantry squad" and decide how which 3/2 split you want on them as a weapon upgrade.

and yea, i do think volks are over performing for cost but that doesnt make "doctrinal volks but better" anymore attractive to me. if you dont think thqat its fair to point out that the new falls would just be elite volks instead of a unit with their own identity i guess thats your right, but thats exactly what they would be. relic REFUSES to even pretend to look at volks so i dont think they are changing anytime soon and i would argue that turning falls from a fun unit that is incredibly rewarding to use properly to a beefy volks squad that you can do no wrong with wont make them more attractive

if you dont think thqat its fair to point out that the new falls would just be elite volks instead of a unit with their own identity i guess thats your right, but thats exactly what they would be.

No that's not what I meant, I was saying it's not fair to suggest I want "plain Jane vanilla matchups". I also don't like the design of the Western mainlines and it sounded like you're saying i want tommy and rifle blobs everywhere. I don't think those squads are exciting at all so I didnt know what you meant there

relic REFUSES to even pretend to look at volks so i dont think they are changing anytime soon and i would argue that turning falls from a fun unit that is incredibly rewarding to use properly to a beefy volks squad that you can do no wrong with wont make them more attractive

That's fair. They could always still be buffed, get a muni upgrade, and retain the 4man 4xfg42 setup (could start off with g43s?). I guess don't have a particular attachment to the 5 man idea, I really would just rather their initial drop behave more like paras. Maybe even give them a second upgrade path like Paras too

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I'm sorry if it came off as me accusing you, that wasn't the intent. I just wanted to express my discontent with the idea of another variation of the same of what we see each and every game.

Falls=/=paras though. Paras have the timed demo and 2 extra men meaning they are useful outside dps. Additionally you said you didn't like how squishy falls are and now you want to send them in without even their DPS? It just seems like a lot of work for a unit that is already good, just a bit difficult to use compared to status quo. Making them 5 men or have to buy their guns because the others have to do the same while ignoring paras advantages is a bit unfair. Keep in mind paras can also use the weapon racks which might contribute to them coming in unarmed, especially with the elite zook. Falls have none of that and are a package deal. I smal fragile package that bites like a bitch.