So this topic: https://www.coh2.org/topic/89250/grenadier-vet-1-and-medkits got me thinking.
The problem I see most often noted about Ostheer's infantry, particularly the Grenadiers, is their lack of survivability in the late game due to still being a 4 man squad. I believe that this is shared between all of their 4 man squads but my point being simple here, instead of copying the UKF "Bolster squads" upgrade, why not try something more "unique" and help them scale better by "awarding" them that 5th man with veterancy to allow them and survive later in the game as well? It's why they added the "advanced infantry training" or whatever it's name was in the revamped German Infantry doctrine I believe as well.
Just some food for thought I got while reading the mentioned topic as I said, decided to throw it out there if anybody wanted to experiment with it or anything but I don't feel like the one who should meddle with balance.
Cheers and have a nice day.
Ostheer infantry getting 5th man with veterancy.
14 Apr 2019, 18:28 PM
#1
Posts: 3145 | Subs: 2
14 Apr 2019, 18:33 PM
#2
Posts: 1660
I'm all for that if the total 4 kar98k dps remains similar to the previous 3 kar98k.
Honestly, 5 men mg are a thing with m1918 already
Honestly, 5 men mg are a thing with m1918 already
14 Apr 2019, 19:12 PM
#3
Posts: 528 | Subs: 1
Great idea, then we can finally add proper brawler tank, proper heavy tank, nondoctrinal elite infantry and nondoctrinal rocket artillery to usf. I support this way of thinking.
14 Apr 2019, 19:26 PM
#4
Posts: 3145 | Subs: 2
Great idea, then we can finally add proper brawler tank, proper heavy tank, nondoctrinal elite infantry and nondoctrinal rocket artillery to usf. I support this way of thinking.
I have suggested that both the Soviets and USF get upgrades to the T-34/85 and 76mm Sherman respectively.
Other than that I don't know what you mean by proper heavy tank for the USF when they have the Pershing which was the heaviest US tank to see action during the war, well apart from the M4A3E2 Sherman Jumbo which is more like a beefed up medium tank than a heavy such.
You can feel free to elaborate on what exactly you mean by nondoctrinal elite infantry and nondoctrinal rocket artillery. All forms of historical "elite" US infantry already exist in the game and the only rocket artillery we used during the war is the Calliope as far as I'm aware and I don't think people would be satisfied with it even if it doesn't require a doctrine to be honest.
14 Apr 2019, 19:28 PM
#5
Posts: 184
Would probably have to nerf the damage of the LMG upgrade as a result, they are very good with it at vet 3, 5 man would be too strong.
14 Apr 2019, 19:37 PM
#6
Posts: 528 | Subs: 1
I have suggested that both the Soviets and USF get upgrades to the T-34/85 and 76mm Sherman respectively.
Other than that I don't know what you mean by proper heavy tank for the USF when they have the Pershing which was the heaviest US tank to see action during the war, well apart from the M4A3E2 Sherman Jumbo which is more like a beefed up medium tank than a heavy such.
You can feel free to elaborate on what exactly you mean by nondoctrinal elite infantry and nondoctrinal rocket artillery. All forms of historical "elite" US infantry already exist in the game and the only rocket artillery we used during the war is the Calliope as far as I'm aware and I don't think people would be satisfied with it even if it doesn't require a doctrine to be honest.
Proper heavy tank means tank with more than 800hp.
Nondoctrinal elite infantry means infantry squad that is stronger than riflemen (preferably long range) and available without picking doctrine.
People would be satisfied with calliope if it wasnt literally the worst AND most expensive rocket artillery in the game.
14 Apr 2019, 20:00 PM
#7
Posts: 3145 | Subs: 2
Proper heavy tank means tank with more than 800hp.
Nondoctrinal elite infantry means infantry squad that is stronger than riflemen (preferably long range) and available without picking doctrine.
People would be satisfied with calliope if it wasnt literally the worst AND most expensive rocket artillery in the game.
The Pershing is a heavy tank, and like I already said it was the heaviest tank used by the US during the war. On how it is currently balanced I cannot argue or comment on as it's not my place.
If you want a meat shield then I would say that the Jumbo is your best bet, which I have also vouched for but sadly as most other things, a new model won't be added to the game, at least just yet.
You will have to be more specific on the non-doctrinal elite infantry as like I said, options are limited as probably all of the elite infantry are already in game but it wouldn't make sense for you to be able to field Airborne, Rangers and Mechanized Riflemen every single game as the US Army relied mostly on GIs during the war which both the US Army from CoH and the USF forces from this game stay true to.
I agree on the Calliope, sadly my suggestion of enabling it's main gun to be able to fire has turned out to be impossible to implement due to the mod tools limitations, apart from that I have no other ideas on what to do with it.
14 Apr 2019, 20:05 PM
#8
Posts: 3053
Would probably have to nerf the damage of the LMG upgrade as a result, they are very good with it at vet 3, 5 man would be too strong.
Yeah 5 men with that sort of RA and an lmg42 would be far too powerful. The only reason ostheer infantry gets the kind of dps and resilience to small arms that they do is because they're 4 man squads.
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15 Apr 2019, 00:04 AM
#9
Posts: 184
Why not just give them some sort of explosive resistance on higher vet? I'm all up for Ostheer buffs but I'd rather have them stay with their iconic 4 men squads.
15 Apr 2019, 00:22 AM
#10
Posts: 2358
+1 to 4 man squad style.
IMO, bunkers (AKA trenches) should be the solution to indirect fire and explosive damage mitigation for OH inf. OH Mainline and pios can build them, elite troops dont.
The problem now is both: bunker spam or anti garrison damage.
Both could be fixed without big changes. The first (bunker spam) can be fixed by reducing the basic bunker cost but adding that discount to upgrade cost, and adding popcap to MGupgrade (many people have already suggested that). The second one could be a little trickier but if infantry inside a bunker could get some "damage reduction buff" basically to stop mortars and HE explosives to 0KH them.
This way OH remains mainly as a defensive faction, because adding explosive resistance to grens will result in more grenblobbing
IMO, bunkers (AKA trenches) should be the solution to indirect fire and explosive damage mitigation for OH inf. OH Mainline and pios can build them, elite troops dont.
The problem now is both: bunker spam or anti garrison damage.
Both could be fixed without big changes. The first (bunker spam) can be fixed by reducing the basic bunker cost but adding that discount to upgrade cost, and adding popcap to MGupgrade (many people have already suggested that). The second one could be a little trickier but if infantry inside a bunker could get some "damage reduction buff" basically to stop mortars and HE explosives to 0KH them.
This way OH remains mainly as a defensive faction, because adding explosive resistance to grens will result in more grenblobbing
15 Apr 2019, 12:09 PM
#13
Posts: 732
Maybe damage reduction will more balance？It improve Grenadines survival but didn't improve fire power
15 Apr 2019, 13:46 PM
#14
Posts: 264
The hard part is 4 man squads across the board are terrified of grenades and indirect fire. 5-6 man squads are harder to wipe, especially with good vet.
But 4 man squads are pretty crucial to keeping that Wehr/OKW flare (yeah just volks/fusiliers are 5-6). The best example I have a of way to approach this is to look at the RA of Obers, Had a 2v2 where I had 1 of the mat Vet5, and the M18 Scot couldn't hit 1 of the obers very easily. But then a fresh vet0 walked up and got plastered by them.
You wont be able to avoid a good grenade placement, but indirect fire should not be wiping squads out so fast. When 2-3 M18 scots hit a squad directly, it's dead.
But 4 man squads are pretty crucial to keeping that Wehr/OKW flare (yeah just volks/fusiliers are 5-6). The best example I have a of way to approach this is to look at the RA of Obers, Had a 2v2 where I had 1 of the mat Vet5, and the M18 Scot couldn't hit 1 of the obers very easily. But then a fresh vet0 walked up and got plastered by them.
You wont be able to avoid a good grenade placement, but indirect fire should not be wiping squads out so fast. When 2-3 M18 scots hit a squad directly, it's dead.
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19 Apr 2019, 15:40 PM
#15
Posts: 783
Got an idea. After Phase 2 upgrade, you will have the option to purchase "Veteran Training". Make them perform slightly better and improve their RA. To make them scale better. Performance which will kind of scale with survivability.
Currently as we all know. Losing 1 gren is crucial. So, I think having a choice of making them perform overall better than survivability would be more of an ideal choice since nobody agrees on making them 5 man.
They do scale badly in comparison to many other units and factions in terms of infantry. I think this is an ideal compensation
Currently as we all know. Losing 1 gren is crucial. So, I think having a choice of making them perform overall better than survivability would be more of an ideal choice since nobody agrees on making them 5 man.
They do scale badly in comparison to many other units and factions in terms of infantry. I think this is an ideal compensation
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19 Apr 2019, 21:04 PM
#16
Posts: 4928
The Pershing is a heavy tank, and like I already said it was the heaviest tank used by the US during the war. On how it is currently balanced I cannot argue or comment on as it's not my place.
If you want a meat shield then I would say that the Jumbo is your best bet, which I have also vouched for but sadly as most other things, a new model won't be added to the game, at least just yet.
I was kind of bummed they added the Pershing instead of the Jumbo, I thought a call-in 75mm Sherman with roughly Vet 2 Panther level durability would have been an interesting dynamic with the M10 or M36, or just other Shermans. It would have been an excellent screening vehicle.
I agree on the Calliope, sadly my suggestion of enabling it's main gun to be able to fire has turned out to be impossible to implement due to the mod tools limitations, apart from that I have no other ideas on what to do with it.
Same with the Calliope, I feel that it's pretty underwhelming. Introducing a rocket launching platform like the Panzerwerfer and Katrusha but much harder to destroy was a departure I don't think should have been taken. Since it's so survivable they've had to keep scaling back the damage so it's not too strong. Should have just went with the Xylophone, which was mounted on truck beds.
More on topic:
Why not just give them some sort of explosive resistance on higher vet? I'm all up for Ostheer buffs but I'd rather have them stay with their iconic 4 men squads.
That would probably be the best way to go, or even increase their HP with vet, but that might skew balance since all regular infantry are 80HP, with only exceptions for Partisans and Soviet Snipers, and the latter is being changed (unsure of the former).
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19 Apr 2019, 21:45 PM
#17
1 Posts: 927
Great idea, then we can finally add proper brawler tank, proper heavy tank, nondoctrinal elite infantry and nondoctrinal rocket artillery to usf. I support this way of thinking.
Are you trying to say Panther is a heavy tank and pgrens are elite infantry? LOL
20 Apr 2019, 05:07 AM
#18
Posts: 528 | Subs: 1
Are you trying to say Panther is a heavy tank and pgrens are elite infantry? LOL
Yes and yes.
Ostheer panther uses heavy tank skin, has heavy crush and is more durable than any tank USF can field. Looks like a heavy tank to me.
Panzer grenadiers have bundle grenade, cost 340mp, same as stortroopers and only 10mp less than commandos and come from t2 building unlike mainline infantry that comes from t0/1. Pretty standard elite squad.
20 Apr 2019, 06:59 AM
#19
Posts: 1660
Yes and yes.
Ostheer panther uses heavy tank skin, has heavy crush and is more durable than any tank USF can field. Looks like a heavy tank to me.
Panzer grenadiers have bundle grenade, cost 340mp, same as stortroopers and only 10mp less than commandos and come from t2 building unlike mainline infantry that comes from t0/1. Pretty standard elite squad.
Heavy tank main feature is not durability but armor. Panther is little more armoured than Panzer 4 H.
Panther used Heavy Tank skin because its physical model is as large as an heavy tank. UC uses the same skin as Valentine, doesn't mean they are of the same vehicle class.
20 Apr 2019, 07:18 AM
#20
Posts: 528 | Subs: 1
Heavy tank main feature is not durability but armor. Panther is little more armoured than Panzer 4 H.
Hmmm. Then i guess churchill is not a heavy tank. You learn something new every day.
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