Feedback for New Commander mod 4.0 - OST core changes

What?

Does the shrek upgrade reduce the AI value of the 3 other models who don't get the shrek?

Because 3 shrek upgraded squads is still 9 pfusiliers with k98s; putting aside the 6 shrek shots, are you telling me 5-riflemen or 6-conscripts can beat 9 pfusiliers?

I will gladly put this to the test when I get home, but it sounds very PressXtoDoubt.jpg.

Panzerfusiliers Kar 98K have pretty poor DPS (especially close to mid range) and because the Schrecks will always occupy the final two weapons, Allied squad would only need to kill 3 models to render a Pfussies useless, as opposed to Pfussies having to kill 4-5 models to force a retreat.

One stock Riflemen has ~21,88 DPS at range 10, which is the same DPS as 7x Panzerfusiliers Kar 98K. So they will be able to easily hold their ground against at least two charging Schrecked Panzerfusilier squads, and possible a third if they get some nice RNG and favorable positioning. That's why I said up to (and not including) three squads.

One 2x BAR Riflemen has ~28.53 DPS at range 10, which is the same DPS as 9x Panzerfusiliers Kar 98K. So they will be able to hold their ground against three charging Schrecked Panzerfusilier squads and might even win charging into them instead.

Cons could win against two Schrecked Panzerfusilier squads, because they have basically the same DPS (whoever charges would lose, but it's still a cost effectiveness win for Cons either way). Penals are a bit better than stock Riflemen.

Anyways the point wasn't what exactly can and can not beat a certain number of squads, the point was to illustrate Panzerfusilier AI dps after their Panzerschreck upgrade gets really, really poor. And it's nothing compared to the AI DPS that the old Volksgrenadiers with Panzerschrecks had.
I watched Momo4sho's replay and his OKW teammate's Schrecked Panzerfusiliers got a grand total of I think 5 infantry kills in about 20 minutes of running around with Schrecks and continiously running into enemy infantry.

Tell me the number that your think closer to the dps of 3 panzerfusiliers kar98k at vet 5 at mid range. I'll wait.

His statement wasn't about 3 individual pfusilier models, but 3 SQUADS (9 total models with kar98k).

*snip*

I don't doubt the numbers, but that just seems bizarre to me. I am often doubtful of how a comparison of stats goes in no small part because often in real gameplay things don't pan out based on who has higher pen or who has higher DPS, at least from my experience.

Which isn't to say the stats aren't useful, just that your statement sounded very hyperbolic.

edit:

So I decided to test this out by yolo-ing in 3 squads with the shrek upgrade to riflemen (with an RE squad further away supporting (off camera, to the south)), and said riflemen+RE beat them with only 3 fusilier models dropped.

https://i.gyazo.com/68d974d5a3c560f20a6ba6638434ead7.mp4

Funny to note, that the shrek shots create yellow cover, so the infantry getting shot by it actually has an advantage (but still died).

Since the AI with the mod is garbage, it's a bit trickier to test properly (and cheat tools doesn't let me spawn/control squads) so I just ran around with the same squad without healing/reinforcing and it murdered 2 more RE squads and finally, after a 2nd fresh riflemen squad came out, did I lose 2 of the 3 original squads but still won out.

But fair enough, you said "up to 3" -- Trying it with 2 pfusiliers vs 1 riflemen, and the result is this: https://i.gyazo.com/38b5992311796d31b7b268c12b7b648d.mp4 (did this 3 times, the closest was when the rifles killed 1 pfusilier squad but died to the 2nd who remained at 5 men at around 95% hp).

Now, having seen all that I _do_ think that 2 riflemen together could probably kill 3 pfusilier squads with shreks on them, especially if they are up close or if the pfusiliers make the mistake of giving the riflemen yellow cover at a range where it matters.

So uh... yeah, hyperbolic statement. I get what your intention was in saying what you did, and yeah the pfusilier AI ability is severely hampered given the shrek transfers, but ... it defeats trust in one's statements.

Your test.

Single test runs are generally pretty rng dependent. For example, see tightrope's series of tests here:
https://youtu.be/dqZZYhuHZSs?t=1517

Sometimes one squad will win with half health, then the other will win with half health.*

That said, the stats would easily indicate panzerfusiliers stomping riflemen, especially if theyre not in cover. 9 models of durability vs 5 models of durability is big. Essentially being outnumbered three squads to one and still almost being able to trade equally is decent though in my opinion - mainly because even small differences in fire power tend to snowball into large wins in fights.

On the subject of AT rifles, I don't think they would put panzerfusiliers in a better spot. If the AT rifles are usable against infantry (like the guards ptrs), then that just makes the issue worse since it takes away some of their gratuitous AT power and shifts it into their main weakness, raw infantry combat. If the AT rifles aren't very usable against infantry (like penals ptrs), then why would you ever get panzerfusiliers? For a presumably similar cost, you would be able to get sturms which would have comparable AT, have a range where they perform alright at, and have utility.

Basically: if they're made into light AT (2-3x ptrs that dont do well against infantry), then sturms would basically just be better. If they're made into light AT and decent anti infantry (2-3x guards ptrs), then they become generalists that are even more liable to being blobbed. OKW currently lacks a heavy AT squad, which is what double schrecked pfusis would be. 1 panzerschreck and some mix of at rifles are also a possibility, but the weapon mixing would make them awkward to use.

I personally wouldn't mind if fusiliers had guards ptr esque stats with panzerbuches rather than shreks since they would most likely be much cheaper it would be pretty good early game without hard scaling as much

Don't forget, that OKW now has the 221. Most blue-prints are in use now.


Vehicles which are kind of unused or have multible animations:

- Opel-Blitz (could become a extra retreat-point for OKW)
- 251 (my idea for Ostheer) has the option to complete close the netting, or open it.
- US6-truck (my idea for Soviets) can remove the platform to modify it.

251 can be open topped? !!!

I was told by the Senior Mod Maker that it was impossible

Single test runs are generally pretty rng dependent. For example, see tightrope's series of tests here:
https://youtu.be/dqZZYhuHZSs?t=1517

Sometimes one squad will win with half health, then the other will win with half health.*

That said, the stats would easily indicate panzerfusiliers stomping riflemen, especially if theyre not in cover. 9 models of durability vs 5 models of durability is big. Essentially being outnumbered three squads to one and still almost being able to trade equally is decent though in my opinion - mainly because even small differences in fire power tend to snowball into large wins in fights.

I did multiple attempts; and have cautioned the same regarding "single examples" and referred to tightrope's example specifically as well (see here: https://www.coh2.org/topic/88080/okw-grand-offensive-feedback/page/4#post_id733509).

My reason in even bothering to post a gif was that what Sanders said was just too extreme and while I appreciate his fleshed out responses and input, I also doubt the veracity of what people say if they're willing to allow such hyperbolic statements as if they are obvious facts.

This forum is already full of all kinds of ridiculous statements.

@Murky Dephts Irrelevant, tell me the dps of a Panzershreck Panzerfusilier squad.

@Murky Dephts Irrelevant, tell me the dps of a Panzershreck Panzerfusilier squad.

Dunno, I go off of the coh2db.com/stats and it doesn't have that version of the squad. I guess you could take the DPS of the kar98k there and multiply it by 3 instead of 5 and call it even, which would be around 9 DPS at range 10 I guess.

Also, what's irrelevant? When you misunderstood that I was talking about three squads instead of three models? I'd say that's plenty relevant because if a single riflemen squad or conscript squad could beat 3 pfusilier squads with shreks, then that's a really shitty deal for the pfusiliers.

Dunno, I go off of the coh2db.com/stats and it doesn't have that version of the squad.

Also, what's irrelevant? When you misunderstood that I was talking about three squads instead of three models? I'd say that's plenty relevant because if a single riflemen or conscript squad could beat 3 pfusilier squads with shreks, then that's a really shitty deal for the pfusiliers.

It has, vet 5 is unchanged from vet 3 version.

Slighly more than 9 dps, multiplied by 3, is 27 dps. All it gets to outdps it is 7 stock vet 3 riflemen model.

Okay. Not sure what your point is, given that earlier I said 2 riflemen squads could probably defeat 3 shreked pfusilier squads, but that match-up is far more reasonable than the original statement.

I feel like throwing the KT into OST is even worse, each faction has a signature heavy, it doesn't need to change.

I feel like throwing the KT into OST is even worse, each faction has a signature heavy, it doesn't need to change.

At this point, OKW is ost with 5 man infantries anyway.

At this point, OKW is ost with 5 man infantries anyway.

Then it is even more reason to not blur the lines further.

Then it is even more reason to not blur the lines further.

The lines are already blurred because the "unique" route didn't work out so well 3 years ago.

Why do you think so many people like and keep playing AoE when most of it's nations are around 80-90% similar?

The lines are already blurred because the "unique" route didn't work out so well 3 years ago.

Why do you think so many people like and keep playing AoE when most of it's nations are around 80-90% similar?

Because they like macro strategies and don't like protoss or dead games?

Because they like macro strategies and don't like protoss or dead games?

I am not an avid AoE player but I've seen plenty of videos where there is a good amount of micro involved, sure probably not as much as here or in Starcraft but still. I always thought CoH as a balanced micro and macro game and it's perhaps why I loved it so much.

251 can be open topped? !!!

I was told by the Senior Mod Maker that it was impossible

It can, but isnt full functional. But you can use it to make some stationary models and fill the opend vehicle with some stuff. E.g. with wire, to simulate a communication vehicle.

The lines are already blurred because the "unique" route didn't work out so well 3 years ago.

Why do you think so many people like and keep playing AoE when most of it's nations are around 80-90% similar?

There are similarities, that is unavoidable and necessary. However there are certain signature elements which makes gameplay as and vs a faction varied and interesting, and I don't think we want to lose that.

Questions to balance team:

- with current Pgren vet1 changes what is the proposal of the BalanceTeam to replace the ability in German Infantry Doctrine?

- do you guys really think that observation bunker fits the theme of Strategic Tank Reserves? From what i understand the reason why commander was picked becouse it alludes to the well equipted elite german divisions like Grossdeutschland that had to fill the gaps in the broken frontline. The idea of radio intel sort of made sense but observation bunker (even though it's really interesting concept) is a defensive structure and doesn't merge with agressive, highly mobile panzer divisions. I highly suggest to change it with something more connected to vehicules.

The idea of radio intel sort of made sense but observation bunker (even though it's really interesting concept) is a defensive structure and doesn't merge with agressive, highly mobile panzer divisions. I highly suggest to change it with something more connected to vehicules.

The old vehicle detection from Elite Armor could be used as a replacement for the bunker or you could give the ability to the bunker itself. As i already have mentioned before i would prefer the stuka smoke drop because of the synergy with Assgrens.