I hear the new patches have made western allies op?

(that's actually vippers logic here, don't buff single up unit, nerf 15 other ones, because apparently that's easier somehow)

I have clearly explained that benchmark can not be balanced around other units, but the other units need to balanced around the benchmark. Else one has to choose a new benchmark.

Now pls stop twisting what I have posted, or PLS do not post about things you fail to understand.

It's Ostheer that's underperforming in every stage of the game.

Fragile infantry (Grens) that can't compete with BARS and Brens.

Lackluster "elite" infantry (PGs) that can't compete with Bars and Brens.

Inferior midgame (T70, Stuart, AEC leave you on the back foot).

And a lategame that is mediocre at best and absolutely inferior to Brits (Tiger, Ostwind < Churchill, Centaur). Aka no reward for holding out that long. It's characteristic, that Brummbär, Elefant got significant nerfs while multiple Allied lategame units got buffs/ stayed the same. Ost lategame was neutered for no compensation.

And before I hear the "l2p" posts, I'm playing this game and it's predecessor for more than a decade now. I know what I'm doing.

+1

But I am not convinced OKW is able to deal with current USF/UKF either

It's Ostheer that's underperforming in every stage of the game.

Fragile infantry (Grens) that can't compete with BARS and Brens.

Lackluster "elite" infantry (PGs) that can't compete with Bars and Brens.

Inferior midgame (T70, Stuart, AEC leave you on the back foot).

And a lategame that is mediocre at best and absolutely inferior to Brits (Tiger, Ostwind < Churchill, Centaur). Aka no reward for holding out that long. It's characteristic, that Brummbär, Elefant got significant nerfs while multiple Allied lategame units got buffs/ stayed the same. Ost lategame was neutered for no compensation.

I agree with almost everything but OSt t4 is viable. Too bad that you will not see the benefits of it in most games right now.

It's Ostheer that's underperforming in every stage of the game.

There's a similar problem with Ostheer as there was with the Brits, which is that they are a bit underperforming in 1v1s but still very strong in team games (where support weapons and T4 are much easier to use etc). Gotta be very careful when making changes because of this.

Vipper, just because you think Ost are the ideal benchmark faction doesn't make it true. You can 'explain' it a thousand timea and it is still just your opinion.


More generally, Ost are prefectly playable, but they rely on a couple of extremally good units to keep their gameplay in check.

The MG-42 and PaK are still best in class. They still have early and easy access to fausts and the best grenades going on grens and pgrens. The shreck is still the best handheld AT for securing vehicle kills.

Anybody that complains about the Brum needs to actually use it coupled with panzer tactition to murder AT guns. Its attack ground functionality is almost without compare.

A few units are legitimately lackluster, but they're viable in all games and bring some of the best units in all tiers. 1v1 is their weakest showing due to the nature of infantry play in it, but whatcha gonna do.

Vipper, just because you think Ost are the ideal benchmark faction doesn't make it true. You can 'explain' it a thousand timea and it is still just your opinion.

This is not my opinion this how Relic balanced the game. It is documented and I have even provided the links of the corresponding documents.

Asking to buff the benchmark instead of the balancing other units around it is like asking to increase the length of the prototype meter in the National Archives, because a company made an error in measurements.

If in your opinion there is a better way to balance faction pls elaborate.

More generally, Ost are prefectly playable, but they rely on a couple of extremally good units to keep their gameplay in check.

The MG-42 and PaK are still best in class. They still have early and easy access to fausts and the best grenades going on grens and pgrens. The shreck is still the best handheld AT for securing vehicle kills.

Anybody that complains about the Brum needs to actually use it coupled with panzer tactition to murder AT guns. Its attack ground functionality is almost without compare.

A few units are legitimately lackluster, but they're viable in all games and bring some of the best units in all tiers. 1v1 is their weakest showing due to the nature of infantry play in it, but whatcha gonna do.

Pak is about equal to 6 pounder
Light gammon bomb are equal or better than Pg grenades
Brumbar is "Attack ground" functionality is about equal to Dozer which can use smoke stock

Correct me if Im wrong but Ostheer infantry doesnt need to scale well into the late game. In late game you can replace your inf army by many pioneers and focus on TANKS only.

Many Panthers with Panzer tactician on big maps and Elefant + Brummbar with scopes on narrow maps is superior to what that your opponent can bring to the field.

And Ostheer has the best anti-blob tools (Brummbar, Panzerwerfer) and the best HMG

I have clearly explained that benchmark can not be balanced around other units, but the other units need to balanced around the benchmark. Else one has to choose a new benchmark.

Now pls stop twisting what I have posted, or PLS do not post about things you fail to understand.

Yes, you have plenty of times.

No, it still does not make sense to create an endless spiral of unforeseen consequences of nerfing everything down then ONE unit being bad at LATE GAME is the problem.

If you get a flat tire, you change or fix the tire, not poke holes in all remaining ones, while stubbornly repeating like a parrot that flat tire should be benchmark for all other tires.

It's Ostheer that's underperforming in every stage of the game.

Fragile infantry (Grens) that can't compete with BARS and Brens.

Lackluster "elite" infantry (PGs) that can't compete with Bars and Brens.

Inferior midgame (T70, Stuart, AEC leave you on the back foot).

And a lategame that is mediocre at best and absolutely inferior to Brits (Tiger, Ostwind < Churchill, Centaur). Aka no reward for holding out that long. It's characteristic, that Brummbär, Elefant got significant nerfs while multiple Allied lategame units got buffs/ stayed the same. Ost lategame was neutered for no compensation.

And before I hear the "l2p" posts, I'm playing this game and it's predecessor for more than a decade now. I know what I'm doing.

This is the sort of playstyle I remember when I played coh2 during the first year or so of release. You couldn't let the germans dig in or hold out because their armor would really toss the game in your face. Now it's a far more linear approach as all allied units are far more durable, reliable, and hard hitting against a relatively neutered AXIS army.

To better understand the problem, all we've been doing is OKW/Wehr in 2's when we're largely allied players and after about a month it feels like a real struggle to pull wins out.

But it couldn't of been said better than when you mentioned " Holding out " bit as it doesn't feel like that all. Asymmetrical balance has been carved away at, buffing various units to compete without realizing that it's hurting other factions.


I don't believe in this philosophy of " WEll AXIS WAS OP ! IT'S ALLIES TIME!! " Oh please, the games had so many patches, and various factions have been OP as shit. Stop being a selfish POS and realize a game won't be fun if NOBODY wants to play germans for you to fight. Walking over people isn't fun, challenges are fun.. and I have to say.. we're enjoying axis due to the raw challenge but some games you feel pound for pound you'd rather have allied units then overpriced Pgrens, underperforming STUG, and lackluster AI options in late game as OKW (I'd much perfer a pwerfer or brumbar. P4 gets decimated by all the high range/self spotting allied armor)

It's Ostheer that's underperforming in every stage of the game.

Fragile infantry (Grens) that can't compete with BARS and Brens.

Lackluster "elite" infantry (PGs) that can't compete with Bars and Brens.

Inferior midgame (T70, Stuart, AEC leave you on the back foot).

And a lategame that is mediocre at best and absolutely inferior to Brits (Tiger, Ostwind < Churchill, Centaur). Aka no reward for holding out that long. It's characteristic, that Brummbär, Elefant got significant nerfs while multiple Allied lategame units got buffs/ stayed the same. Ost lategame was neutered for no compensation.

And before I hear the "l2p" posts, I'm playing this game and it's predecessor for more than a decade now. I know what I'm doing.

I will say that you're cherry picking. Only mentioning ostwind-centaur when the p4 is clearly superior to the Cromwell for pittance in fuel.

Comet being utterly trash with non existent vet compared to panther. The existence of the pwerfer to wipe support weapon walls when UKF have no non doc indirect fire.

Then there's non doc answers to everything early game, sniper/mortar/smoke/flamer pios/elite inf. Basic tools that factions like Brits and USF lack.

I don't doubt double bar rifles destroy grens lategame, but ostheer are hardly this little puppy you are making them out to be. Maybe some people need reminding okw had a 80% 1vs1 win ratio vs Brits before they got snares, Ost numbers were somewhere around the 68 mark. (Even Hans abandoned Brits)

So I don't see how this one change and some doctrinal tweaks have suddenly made axis useless.

The game just needs small adjustments at this point, it's in a much better place balance wise.

Yes, you have plenty of times.

No, it still does not make sense to create an endless spiral of unforeseen consequences of nerfing everything down then ONE unit being bad at LATE GAME is the problem.

If you get a flat tire, you change or fix the tire, not poke holes in all remaining ones, while stubbornly repeating like a parrot that flat tire should be benchmark for all other tires.

You seem unable to understated the concept of benchmark ant thus your analogy is simply false.

The current situation is like this just because a car does not move one assumes it has a flat tire.

That might or might not be true. But one will get a flat tire if one does not know what is the correct pressure for his tires.

So one needs to find the correct pressure for yhis tires, in other words the benchmark and make sure that all tire have the same pressure.

Now pls stop repeating you personals comments "like a parrot".

Now pls stop repeating you personals comments

This is your best argument as always.
As katitof said its much easier to buff one unit in wermaht than nerf all western front armies. Even if u are somehow right just think about that we have limited resources

This is your best argument as always.
As katitof said its much easier to buff one unit in wermaht than nerf all western front armies. Even if u are somehow right just think about that we have limited resources

Not if that unit is the benchmark.

...
Asking to buff the benchmark instead of the balancing other units around it is like asking to increase the length of the prototype meter in the National Archives, because a company made an error in measurements.
...

Either one uses a benchmark or not. If ones uses a benchmark one has to calibrate everything around the benchmark.

If one does not uses a benchmark pls explain how ones now if a unit is balanced or not.

Not if that unit is the benchmark.


Either one uses a benchmark or not. If ones uses a benchmark one has to calibrate everything around the benchmark.

If one does not uses a benchmark pls explain how ones now if a unit is balanced or not.

if i win using my unit its balanced.

if not my unit is either UP or opponent unit is OP.

Fixing PGrens and the Ostwind would go a long way to helping Ost deal with all the new CQC infantry that's giving them a hard time. Especially with the new patch buffing Rangers of all things.

As for OKW, the whole faction needs a look at. OKW's got insane early shock value, but its trashy non-vehicular AT forces it into vehicular AT, cramping it into a small number of strategies.

Fixing PGrens and the Ostwind would go a long way to helping Ost deal with all the new CQC infantry that's giving them a hard time. Especially with the new patch buffing Rangers of all things.

As for OKW, the whole faction needs a look at. OKW's got insane early shock value, but its trashy non-vehicular AT forces it into vehicular AT, cramping it into a small number of strategies.

Agree with evrything

Fixing PGrens and the Ostwind would go a long way to helping Ost deal with all the new CQC infantry that's giving them a hard time. Especially with the new patch buffing Rangers of all things.

As for OKW, the whole faction needs a look at. OKW's got insane early shock value, but its trashy non-vehicular AT forces it into vehicular AT, cramping it into a small number of strategies.

That is true. Fixing both Pzgrens and Ostwind would most certainly help boost/solve the issues that they are facing. Pzgrens are costy, price should be decreased also due to the lack of utility. They should cost like 300 manpower at least. Also price compensation for dropping like flies. Although vet compensate later on but it takes a while.

It would be cool if Pzgrens could get flamethrower as an upgrade option AI focused, but that is just an idea. Not neccessary but would be a nice AI addition.

Ostwind is underperforming, needs to be more accurate, deal more damage or have bigger AOE. Currently it feels like the worst AI vehicle there is. It relies heavily on unit support in comparison to every other AI medium tank vehicle. It needs to be improved.

Then Osteehr will be fixed.

OKW needs to be looked over, some units being versatile and some unit underperforming. Veterancy issues, support weapons needs some adjustments I believe (adjustments meaning fixes and slight improvements). It needs to be looked over. It has some problems. I think that is what it needs.

I explained what changes should be made on Volks on https://www.coh2.org/topic/88296/revamp-volksgrenadiers-terms-of-versatility-okw. Revamp OKW seems necessary as some perform better and worse than it should.

It would be cool if Pzgrens could get flamethrower as an upgrade option AI focused, but that is just an idea. Not neccessary but would be a nice AI addition.

The game's had midrange mainline infantry with flamers before. Flamer Penals and Flamer Riflemen.

Both were removed because of how powerful cover denial on mainlines is.

Fixing PGrens and the Ostwind would go a long way to helping Ost deal with all the new CQC infantry that's giving them a hard time. Especially with the new patch buffing Rangers of all things.

As for OKW, the whole faction needs a look at. OKW's got insane early shock value, but its trashy non-vehicular AT forces it into vehicular AT, cramping it into a small number of strategies.

yeah, +1000

no buffs to Ost. They have best MG, best Unique faction design (FREE weapon upgrade with tech!!!) and a PREMIUM tier that literally nobody else get!

nerf okw to make ost viable!

So u think pgrens and ostwinds are perfectly fine? It's a myth that only Ost has premium tier. Brits have it too, it's called hammer/anvil specialization. Late game tanks like Comet/Churchill are equivalent to T4 + all the abilities that come with the specialization. I think the Churchill smoke is ridiculously good.