Kubel needs changes

Keep it on the kubel people

So if the opponent suffer from heavy brain damage and decide to not take any cover whatsoever while being at max range aka the best range possible for kubel, the kubelwagen win.

Nice to know i can count on hacking into opponent hardware to make kubelwagen viable.

The Kuble has mobility and sight to always ensure the best matchup. If the enemy is hiding behind cover waiting for the Kuble that's a 210mp unit occupying up to a 280mp unit. If I put the infantry in cover then it's the best case scenario for the infantry and since the claim was that the Kuble can't fight anything I didn't apply the infantry benifit of cover.

In a real game scenario, while the infantry is moving to cover the Kuble would be closing to negate it, I can't test that myself unfortunately in a lab setting but I ACTUALLY use the Kuble unlike anyone in this thread it seems so I know that it is a force multiplier in these scenarios. Usually a Kuble should be supported by sturms or volks but can fight a 1v1 as well, which is important in the early stages of the game.

The Kuble has mobility and sight to always ensure the best matchup. If the enemy is hiding behind cover waiting for the Kuble that's a 210mp unit occupying up to a 280mp unit. If I put the infantry in cover then it's the best case scenario for the infantry and since the claim was that the Kuble can't fight anything I didn't apply the infantry benifit of cover.

In a real game scenario, while the infantry is moving to cover the Kuble would be closing to negate it, I can't test that myself unfortunately in a lab setting but I ACTUALLY use the Kuble unlike anyone in this thread it seems so I know that it is a force multiplier in these scenarios. Usually a Kuble should be supported by sturms or volks but can fight a 1v1 as well, which is important in the early stages of the game.

"The Kuble has mobility and sight to always ensure the best matchup. "

Which means that it must fight at its conditions. On the other hand infantry has the ability to reach one of the multitude of covers in early game. A moving kubel has the pathetic max dps of 3. A moving riflemen has no issue dealong damage to a 14 taget size vehicle.

Again, everything from your post is cherrypicking, grasping at straws and straight up BS.

"If the enemy is hiding behind cover waiting for the Kuble that's a 210mp unit occupying up to a 280mp unit."

There's everywhere cover. If there's not, actually charging kubel force kubel to move and lose 90% of dps. If it stays stationary infantry can circle troll it.

"In a real game scenario, while the infantry is moving to cover the Kuble would be closing to negate it"

And die because it gets front and rear shots from the models that aren't busy.
Great plan master.

Tl,DR: learn how Kubel actually works or play OKW before speaking about it.

The Kuble has mobility and sight to always ensure the best matchup. If the enemy is hiding behind cover waiting for the Kuble that's a 210mp unit occupying up to a 280mp unit. If I put the infantry in cover then it's the best case scenario for the infantry and since the claim was that the Kuble can't fight anything I didn't apply the infantry benifit of cover.

In a real game scenario, while the infantry is moving to cover the Kuble would be closing to negate it, I can't test that myself unfortunately in a lab setting but I ACTUALLY use the Kuble unlike anyone in this thread it seems so I know that it is a force multiplier in these scenarios. Usually a Kuble should be supported by sturms or volks but can fight a 1v1 as well, which is important in the early stages of the game.

I used it in my games and won with it 1v1, urban maps is impossible, but it does not work all the time. It does give you the early aggressiveness in open maps. It should be more adaptable in many more situations. It should do better.

Universal Carrier, has flame as an option to adapt in urban areas, which is great. I am not saying Kubel should get flamethrower but something at least to adapt later on, scale better in many more situations than it currently is.

Maybe it should be able to do full damage output after a concentration fire after 3-5 seconds to unit in cover. Its damage is poor currently.

Fix veterancy is a must.

The following I believe it needs
- Slight increase in armour or decrease Target Size
- Increase base Accuracy to the way Universal Carrier is or better (if it does not get any upgrade options, make it better than base accuracy of Universal Carrier)
- Increase Price to 250 manpower
- Have at least an upgrade or 2, choice to scale later on.
- 1. Is called "Obers", Obersoldaten man the vehicle, increase damage of MG34 from 4 to 6, vet faster, increase accuracy, driving speed increase, maybe slight armour increase. Would be nice right?
- 2. HMG upgrade maybe would be nice too, time to setup, take less damage on when setting up, similar to maxim performance.

Gives it some choices for later game would be great.

So you basically designed a scenario that was specifically designed to be as unrealistic as possible. Tell me, do you generally leave a unit out of cover when its being shot at?

Let me add on this. He didnt mention how much time it took each engagement, meaning a player must be braindead to allow a kuble to "do damage"

The only time i got kubels to work was on a 1v1. I built 4 of them, FOUR.
840 MP against single squads. Microing each one to retire kubels from dying and Spios did only repair them, since they all were taking so much damage.
I wiped 3 squads (yeah poor dude he was not that good at all) and he ragequit.
I repeat the ONLY way a kubel can work as a "combat" unit.

@jagd Wolfe I do play okw, I feel like I'm the only bloody one. Pro tip, don't dive your Kuble into multiple infantry squads! Against multiple squads it's support or out capping while the enemy concentrates their forces.
I didn't test in cover because that wasn't a paramater. The test was simply to determine how the raw stats of the Kuble hold up against the raw stats of allied starting infantry as the claim was that a Kuble can't kill anything, not even RE. that is false. The Kuble is durable enough to out fight all allied infantry. If you start applying modifiers than of course it falters but it has the tools to ensure that when it strikes the enemy isn't using those. Also idk why you mentioned its moving DPS as I never once even alluded to the fact that it's a chase unit, it's not. That's not its job at all. It can damage and kill models and cap territory. It can tell you where the enemy mgs are so you don't walk your sturms into a trap, hell I've used it to flank the MG,, deal damage, get the MG to pack up and then close with sturms. It's very versatile in the early stages all that it is missing its vet accessibility.

At any rate I'm taking my time to do tests (50 bloody tests before I went to bed) and the only response from people who arnt bothering at all and just making claims is either "your tests don't replicate proper battlefield conditions" which might I add would involve Sturm pios, and "well other units can garrison" its literally a grab bag for any kind of buff for the strongest starting faction in the game that the faction does not need.

The Kuble offers the flexibility to still have capping power even if you go double Sturm, it offers flanking DPS and a bleed/harassment tool and it offers Intel to a faction that can make the most out of all of those. A starting assault squad and starting light tank would be OP as all hell.

@balancedgamer urban maps are indeed the bane of the Kuble (pathing OP) all LVs do, but it makes up for it in open maps (the majority of maps) and is invaluable in team games where snowballing is king. Is far more adaptable in the early stages than probably any other unit, it makes up for that by not being as adaptable later. It's kinda like ass grens vs normal grens in that Way. I maintain, if it can get vet then it will be A-OK. It already has arguably the best vet 1 ability in the game, vet 2 is more movement, vet 3 is self heal, vet 4 is combat buffs and vet 5 is Supression and a target size reduction. All GREAT vet, it just never gets there (I got one to vet 5 once and it promptly got smoked by an isu152...)
Little steps before vast balance changes.
The vet is unachievable. Make it achievable and see if that improves it before you start strapping rockets and jet engines ND extra plates of armour on it

@thedarkarmadillo:
I dont get why you only deal in absolutes... kubel is not as good performing as you say, nor its a "starting light tank", its not utter trash neither. It is somewhat in the middle tending to UP.
To take a moment to admit that it is too much to ask? Your test are good information, for your point of view only, since no one discuss that kubelwagon has a gun and is able to do damage in some really specific situations (no cover, far range), as you mention it, its a power multiplier and theres the flawed design, since sacrificing early manpower with sturms and kubels to loose midgame is awfully bad opening or push with the already OP volkswarms, using kubel for capping is the viable option.
Since kubels are displaced by anything but cons, its usefullnes is very situational, so much very situational that kubels are most of the time useless. Penals, IS and riflemen destroys kubels, any other troop is slowly going to force it off and its mobility is not adequate for such style of play.

Buffing kubel mobility makes it usefull for capping.
Buffing kubel MG into a real gun makes it able to multiply force reliably.
Buffing kubel MG suppression makes it able to deny early movement
Buffing kubel Xp reqs, makes it more useful for scouting

Currently neither of the previously four mentioned aspect of kubels stand out in the current metagame and even less after 5 min mark ingame.

@distrofio it's not OP or UP, but middle ground leaning slightly UP. I'll agree with that. Most suggested changes have unknown effects because we don't know how it functions when vetted.

Look at its vet her for a sec
Vet 1 map hax- if you ONLY get this it remains useful I think we can agree there

Vet 2 adds 20% mobility. This would make it even better as a capper (and reposition)

Vet 3 has self heal. That means it can poke and damage and be a real pain in the ass without any support.

Vet 4 makes its gun more powerful with burst length and accuracy. This would mostly serve to counter the durability buffs other infantry are gettimg

Vet 5 is Supression and a target size reduction. This would help it respond to breakthroughs.


All of these are really good vet abilities. But it never gets them.
Can we not agree that being able to get it's vet is a logical first step to making the unit better? We have no idea how giving it an auto cannon or tulips or whatever absurd "pull rabbits out of the hat" kind of buffs people want for it will effect its vet bonuses. If we go the route of adding SOMETHING and it's vet makes it OP, then we need to change its vet anyways so why not start there? Maybe all it needs is attainable vet and kiss on the hood for all we know.

Edit. I USE the Kuble most games I play as OKW, it does damage and is a great support unit. It's not a one man carmy. Okws ability to pump out capable infantry faster than any other faction really resonates with a zippy cap machine.

Im also a user and fan of the kubel. Like most all light vehicles I accept that its gonna die eventually, but many maps it is a gem for harrassment and capping of undefended points. Forcing a more expensive and slower squad to reposition and recap (they will almost certainly cap slower) is great.

Honestly, imo it just needs a better way to get vet, and a small shared vet value like the major seems like the best way to do that. It doesn't do a boat load of damage no, but it also doesn't bleed mp and is great at territorry control.

Shared vet.
Literally nothing else is needed.

Its a joke that for only 50 mp brit can get a light car which can eat 3 fausts, transport units around the map, can be upgraded with flamers or Heavy MG (can supress) and has great use in most games...reach vet 3 with no problems and is really usefull

while the kubel sit there and is victim in most fights and reaching vet5 is like seeing a unicorn

@jagd Wolfe I do play okw, I feel like I'm the only bloody one. Pro tip, don't dive your Kuble into multiple infantry squads! Against multiple squads it's support or out capping while the enemy concentrates their forces.
I didn't test in cover because that wasn't a paramater. The test was simply to determine how the raw stats of the Kuble hold up against the raw stats of allied starting infantry as the claim was that a Kuble can't kill anything, not even RE. that is false. The Kuble is durable enough to out fight all allied infantry. If you start applying modifiers than of course it falters but it has the tools to ensure that when it strikes the enemy isn't using those. Also idk why you mentioned its moving DPS as I never once even alluded to the fact that it's a chase unit, it's not. That's not its job at all. It can damage and kill models and cap territory. It can tell you where the enemy mgs are so you don't walk your sturms into a trap, hell I've used it to flank the MG,, deal damage, get the MG to pack up and then close with sturms. It's very versatile in the early stages all that it is missing its vet accessibility.

At any rate I'm taking my time to do tests (50 bloody tests before I went to bed) and the only response from people who arnt bothering at all and just making claims is either "your tests don't replicate proper battlefield conditions" which might I add would involve Sturm pios, and "well other units can garrison" its literally a grab bag for any kind of buff for the strongest starting faction in the game that the faction does not need.

The Kuble offers the flexibility to still have capping power even if you go double Sturm, it offers flanking DPS and a bleed/harassment tool and it offers Intel to a faction that can make the most out of all of those. A starting assault squad and starting light tank would be OP as all hell.

@balancedgamer urban maps are indeed the bane of the Kuble (pathing OP) all LVs do, but it makes up for it in open maps (the majority of maps) and is invaluable in team games where snowballing is king. Is far more adaptable in the early stages than probably any other unit, it makes up for that by not being as adaptable later. It's kinda like ass grens vs normal grens in that Way. I maintain, if it can get vet then it will be A-OK. It already has arguably the best vet 1 ability in the game, vet 2 is more movement, vet 3 is self heal, vet 4 is combat buffs and vet 5 is Supression and a target size reduction. All GREAT vet, it just never gets there (I got one to vet 5 once and it promptly got smoked by an isu152...)
Little steps before vast balance changes.
The vet is unachievable. Make it achievable and see if that improves it before you start strapping rockets and jet engines ND extra plates of armour on it

Regarding kubels 1v1's squads, its simple how to win vs kubel every time, if thers cover use it to beat the kubel, if thers no cover simply close the kubel and circle strafe it. nobody with half a brain will stand vs a kubel with no cover at max distance, your being absolutely ridiculous and wasted ur own time with those tests

Regarding kubels 1v1's squads, its simple how to win vs kubel every time, if thers cover use it to beat the kubel, if thers no cover simply close the kubel and circle strafe it. nobody with half a brain will stand vs a kubel with no cover at max distance, your being absolutely ridiculous and wasted ur own time with those tests

And if you close in, grats, you are no longer standing on the cap point.

If you have cover, well, tough luck kubel. But it can still drop a model before it falls back for repairs.

Considering it caps at accelerrated speed and has a Pop Cap of 3, its a very small investment for map control and minor bleed.

Only the vet really lets it down at present.

The kubel is less cost efficent to m3, to WC51 and to UC, dies horribly to all of them and that is why they are being used allot more, it is as simply as that.

The armor and moving DPS of these vehicles should be brought inline.

It's veterancy is no it's only issue.

Scout car from soviet has a bit longer shelf life than Kubel but mid/late game it is just irrelevant.

Kubelwagon MG-34 Weapon Stats

Accuracy = Far 0.35
Mid 0.55
Near 0.7


Universal Carrier Weapon Stats
Accuracy = Far 0.6
Mid 0.7
Near 0.8

Heavy Machine Guns (Mg-42, Vickers etc) in General tend to have low accuracy and damage due to the fact that they have suppression. When the Kubelwagon used to function as OKW's Machine Gun, the low accuracy made sense however they never updated its weapon stats to compensate for the lack of suppression. The Kubelwagon should be brought up to the Universal Carrier in terms of accuracy.
Far 0.55
Mid 0.65
Near 0.75

This would make the Kubelwagon an option, at the moment you are better off using that manpower on something else more useful which is why you see the typical 3 Volks opening.

In addition the Veterancy for the unit is complete ass. Let's take a look at the Veterancy.

Kubelwagon Veterancy
Vet 1 : Unlocks the 'Detection' ability
Vet 2 : +20% speed, +20% rotation speed, +25% ac/de-celeration
Vet 3 : Passive self-repairing
Vet 4 : +20% burst duration, +30% accuracy
Vet 5 : -29% received accuracy, passive suppression

It requires 3535 Experience in order to hit Vet 5. The Soviet M3A1 Scout Car only needs 1840 experience to be maxed out. Considering that these units aren't viable past the first 5 minutes of the game, it doesn't make sense for the Kubelwagon's veterancy to be so high, especially when the veterancy it gets is mostly useless outside of the Vet 1 ability.


Total List of Improvements needed for Kubelwagon
Accuracy Improved
Some form of Veterancy rework/Improvements
Improve Weapon Cone of Fire (Since it is no longer a suppression platform this would allow it to flank easier)
Improved Cost

@thedarkarmadillo mentioned that we should begin with decreasing its Veterancy requirements. That would be most definitely a good start before anything else. What should the vet requirement be? Less than or more than what M3A1 scout car is?

It also needs in addition accuracy changes for it being currently weak and not able to shoot on the move. Since it requires it to be stationary in order to shoot. Buff at least its current accuracy to how the Universal Carrier is.

OR

What Kurobane had mentioned!

I think that is what it needs currently before any more decisions are made upon the Kubel. Start small (I would be most certainly happy if the devs fix it), then if many are still not happy, decide for some more bigger or different changes!!

Does that sound better now?

Scout car from soviet has a bit longer shelf life than Kubel but mid/late game it is just irrelevant.

M3 pulls its weight though because it's a highly effective shock unit in the early game. The capability of chasing down squads on retreat makes the unit worth its cost.

Kübelwagen isn't outright terrible, but it's certainly underperforming for its cost. Usually people lose it after a few minutes of ninja capping with it, at which point they regret not getting a volksgrenadier squad for only 40mp more.

M3 pulls its weight though because it's a highly effective shock unit in the early game. The capability of chasing down squads on retreat makes the unit worth its cost.

Kübelwagen isn't outright terrible, but it's certainly underperforming for its cost. Usually people lose it after a few minutes of ninja capping with it, at which point they regret not getting a volksgrenadier squad for only 40mp more.

And unlike a Volks squad, the kubel did not bleed mp and also only took up 3 pop cap keeping your manpower income higher. It will save you the cost of adding that volks squad over its lifetime.