Revamp Volksgrenadiers terms of versatility OKW

The only change Volks need is a weapon slot more. I can't stand the incredible amount of times multiple StG Volks squads had to pass by dropped Brens and Bars only for the enemy to take them back.

Or at least let them replace a STG with a dropped weapon or even baring that atleast let them salvage them.

Kubel is bad, it is just that simple. DPS is bad, for a vehicle that should serve against AI which it hardly does.

Take T70, it is a great vehicle, can cap and recon vet 1. That is way better overall.

So Kubel should do better than it currently does because it hardly does much damage. Nobody gets vet 3 or above, it is impossible. Vet issues with OKW because it is impossible and takes forever.

Luchs, Kubel, Sturmpio, Rak, MG34 vet too slow. Other factions although limited to vet3 are better off since they get it earlier.

Vet 5 does not matter if it is impossible to achieve it for any of these classes

Sorry had to quote this just to make sure I'm not missing something here. Did you just say the Kubel, a 210mp t0 unit is underperforming because a 70fuel and at least the much mp unit 2 tiers later performs better when it gets vetted? Is that really what you wrote? What the hell do you want from it? It's 210mp all in! It caps, it shoots and when it's risky to do both of those things it should have map hax. It could probably use shared vet so it can get those later levels of vet, but at the end of the day it's 210mp that offers a strong and aggressive start and is cheap enough to risk building later if you have the MP as cap harassment.

Under no circumstance should it EVER be compared to a fucking light tank if you want anyone to take a single word you post seriously.

You can't do anything more because it's bad.

Its like saying cons arnt bad, youre just using them in combat roles which isnt its role.

cons were never a combat troop /s
*raging katitof appears

Sorry had to quote this just to make sure I'm not missing something here. Did you just say the Kubel, a 210mp t0 unit is underperforming because a 70fuel and at least the much mp unit 2 tiers later performs better when it gets vetted? Is that really what you wrote? What the hell do you want from it? It's 210mp all in! It caps, it shoots and when it's risky to do both of those things it should have map hax. It could probably use shared vet so it can get those later levels of vet, but at the end of the day it's 210mp that offers a strong and aggressive start and is cheap enough to risk building later if you have the MP as cap harassment.

Under no circumstance should it EVER be compared to a fucking light tank if you want anyone to take a single word you post seriously.

It may have been a bad comparison. I just pointed out that, if Kubel can do better than it does in AI terms, gain cap instead vet 1 or not, would be great because as AI terms, it is bad currently. Sorry for any convenience but how often does anyone use a kubel compared to SU Scout Car (190 manpower 15fuel) and UKF Universal Carrier (260manpower only). Kubel is a vehicle that is good at capping and harassing but it does not always work.

Even then, if the opponents has a force that is stronger than yours. They will most likely do more harm than Kubel. Kubel is bad at AI since it is indirect fire mostly. To repel enemies is almost useless. It dies too easily. Universal Carrier (better and more fair example instead of T70) although 50 manpower more, serves more purpose, is better than Kubel overall. It has access to upgrades, can transport, can repair, increase firepower, can last longer even until mid late game.

Kubel is just a recon unit. Who needs it? Any unit can be a recon in game. It is not that fast as it should since it is the lightest of the lightest. It would make sense but it is slower than T70 or T34. It is the lightest car in game dammit.

Its damage only seems to excel the closer you get which in my opinion is lackluster. Since it is most vulnerable to sidearms than any other vehicle. It would make more sense to keep it at range, to excel like Universal Carrier which they have thought through but not Kubel. With Kubel you have to get it close which is suicidal in order to increase DPS. This is a huge disadvantage. There is no advantages in using Kubel in comparison to Universal Carrier. MG upgrade would be great like MG42 for longer range option instead or something.

Universal Carrier does great against Infantry, that forces them to retreat most of the time when engaged in longer distances. This gives UKF greater opportunity/purpose/chances to Cap. It bleeds manpower, and resources. Can suppress (costs but worth it) with MG upgrade which makes the whole more deadlier, can be used and chosen as an option even mid game. Flamethrower upgrade, best in urban, most adaptable light vehicle in game.

Kubel just resources and recon, both combined which does not matter overall. It is not worth it, every other unit can do that. SO what is the point? . It has to serve more purpose. I personally would not mind if capping were removed for a more AI focused gameplay. Have an MG upgrade or something to increase DPS.

Takes SU scout car. Cheaper, 190 manpower and 15 fuel. Best light vehicle alongside Universal Carrier. Put Penals on top, Shreds OKW in the beginning, caps also as long as you have someone inside. How is it faster than Kubel. Serves more and better purpose overall. Harass better overall. You can circle around enemy to a point they where they cant retreat and they just die. Even then the vehicle alone does better than Kubel. What a joke.

Kubel should be faster since it is most vulnerable but mostly should increase its damage and DPS at range instead of close range. It is a terrible mechanic if you ask me for a vehicle that vulnerable compared to Luchs which can not be harmed by small arms, so it makes more sense for it to engage close range but NOT the Kubel.

Personally, for capping, I would rather use Volks or any other unit in game instead since they will most likely survive later, serve better, do better than Kubel which is meant to last or even be used for 5min. It does not serve purpose except only really early gameplay. SAD

For me change Kubel into more AI focus rather than capping. Take cap away, make it excel in DPS at range. Make it more AI focused. What other faction in game has a vehicle like this, none because it does not serve purpose!! It needs to be used more often rather than a unit that would be used 10% of the time or ever.

I play UKF also (got them some time ago), I use Universal Carrier more often because it serves a better purpose. Take some models, they retreat giving you more than enough time to harass and cap the enemy lines. Kubel gets countered easily in comparison because they say it is justified. It is not.

Seriously, it is a vehicle that hardly anyone uses. Has anyone considered that fact, even obvious that pros hardly use it. Even in urban areas, It is still even more possible to use Universal Carrier and SU Scout Car. It is more adaptable. Kubel really depends on Map, Faction and Counters. Others can simply just take it without giving it a second thought.

If OKW is vehicle Meta, why is the Kubel bad overall, DPS, Target Size, Vulnerability, Lack of adaptability, Slower, waste most of the time and manpower. Even Luchs to some extent but not as much. OKW lacks AI vehicles even then they are light mostly. No choice really late game except PanzerIV. Lackluster.

I would prefer a version if possible for the Kubel a more AI focused because as it stands now, it is not that good at all.

Show Spoiler

its not a stand alone unit, its a support unit that excels in the okws start lineup, in a team game it is easily the most valuable start unity because it allows your team go right for valuable positions while the 210mp unit runs around back capping. or you can send it straight for the enemy cut off and start dealing damage before your stums show up, help push off the enemy then heal up for 0mp in bleed. its one of the units that has focus fire set to false, meaning it can deal damage even when it misses.
its for agression, not holding off infantry pushes (its actually just a car with an mg on it, in case you didnt know. it also costs 210MP!!!!!!!!!!!)

as for its LV counterparts:
the m3a1 isnt JUST 190mp and 15 fuel (which alone very much warrants being better than just 210mp(!) its also behind another 160mp and 10 fuel tech that lacks support weapons and utilizes 300mp infantry. this means that in order to get one out the soviet player spends 350mp and 25f just to get it on the field.

to compare ....

Show Spoiler
im not really sure what you want from this unit. its fast, it deals LOTS of damage, its a great harassment vehicle in the early parts of the game. what would be acceptable combat stats for you? does it need enough armour to fight off all the enemy infantry without need for repairs? does it need the DPS of LMG obers so it can solo flanking upgunned infantry? does it need to be cheaper than 210mp(!!!!!!) does it need to build faster? like what do you want here?

heard of the term glass cannon? its a powerful but fragile unit that needs attention to really shine. try microing it, seriously TRY to use it
people DONT use it because volks come out of the same building at the same time and the kuble cant snare vehicles or burn garrisons or make cover of get an all range DPS upgrade that melts at close range. kuble inst BAD, its just not as attractive as the unit that is literally over buffed so it can fight units that are of way more of an investment. why take the light car for early gains when you can take the squad that is potent against everything up to double armed WFA infantry?


side additions on rereading your post that i think need specific attention

Show Spoiler
and basicly all your other complaints boil down to "why would anybody trying to win not just build more volks- they are the answer to LITERALLY every battlefield question. its like why build cons when you can build penals? why build RE when rifles are right there? why build a unit that you need to make really shine when theres a unit right there that wiull do all the work for you and make you seem to shine?

regarding the kubel, wasn't it supposed to have a cool steal resource ability ? what happend to that

regarding the kubel, wasn't it supposed to have a cool steal resource ability ? what happend to that

Nope, never, not for a second.

regarding the kubel, wasn't it supposed to have a cool steal resource ability ? what happend to that

Yes it had the Siphon ability prior to release but OKW where designed differently and I am not at liberty to say.

...

Then you include balance concept in your thoughts and understand why is the Kubel where it is.

@thedarkarmadillo

I just wish the unit is more viable in more situations. Yes, it is good early game, but only during that time. Other vehicles, such as of those I have mentioned, can potentially last even longer and serve more purpose.

I used Kubel in several games, Yes, I had wins with it but sometimes it seems like BS when it does 3 bursts but does not get a kill. It is a support unit, understandable. I would not mind if they increased the price with some amends. It relies heavily on other units finishing the job. Might also explain why its vet gains are so crap.

The SU does come later and costs overall as you have mentioned 350 manpower and 25fuel.

How about Universal Carrier, it just as early as kubel. It cant cap but it focuses more on AI which is great. Has armour that is stronger for just 50 manpower difference. In that difference, it quite a huge proportion.


Vet Issue
The question here is, HOW often do you see vet 3 Universal Carrier and the Kubel vet 3. Personally, I never really get vet 3 Kubel or higher because it is impossible. The vet is another issue that I mentioned. Vet 5 means BS if it has poor shared veterancy when I always used it nearby other units as support.

Comparison
Universal Carrier serves better more overall for a more reasonable, cost effective price since it performs very well overall, in addition to having 2 optional upgrades. It stands out more, it is like the Kubel back in day that many say, suppress on the move, it can do, costs munition the ability with the need of the MG upgrade.

What I think would be a nice addition
Kubel maybe should at least have access to an upgrade (like Obers MG meaning better performance, should cost 60 ammo) to make it more attractive rather than a volatile unit early mid game, can supress also but costs munitions to do so. It takes a lot of damage from side arms in comparison, does less damage, has less armour for ridicule manpower difference, it is only 50 manpower. I would not mind 260 manpower cost for Kubel or something for just slight better performance really.

It is not that Kubel is totally better in one area compared to Uni Carrier. Just saying, is it really worth in comparison?

What I did mean about SU scout car with Penals on top circling around a unit. It is a exploitation that was initally used against me in one of the games me as OKW vs SU player, which I now use to my own advantage. Basically, you intense micro making a circular motion around an enemy which forces it to move on one or side or the other. Since SU scout car is so manoeuvrable, it can keep the unit going in a circle motion while your penals on top just spray shots point blank effortlessly. The enemy has no control over the unit, if you successfully pull this move, retreat button wont work at all.

It was quite frustrating for me as an OKW player, but I see it is great way of spoiling the game within 5 min since OKW has no AT other than Rak. None picks rak unless they want to put themselves in a disadvantage in terms of early AI. FUN though as SU player.

Thanks for the response though but I just would like it at least for it to take less damage than it does since it is heavily reliant on being close range to excel compared to Universal Carrier that can just keep its distance instead with better armour. I like the Kubel but not as much as I like to. Maybe instead have it like Uni Carrier, long range excel. How about that for a change at least?

The kubel had its armor lower for extra HP the same should be done with other early cars.

@balancedgamer

50mp is a lot in the early game. The UC costing that much more on top of having nothing but combat power is why it's better than the Kuble.
Compare:
rear echelons 200mp volks 250mp
Pioneers 200mp,volks 250mp
Volks 250mp, penals 300mp

50mp is a lot when it comes to comparing t0 units. You also need to look at their starting composition for the factions
Kuble and volks= 460mp
Bren and tommies= 540mp

It adds up.

I get why you want more from the Kuble but it really doesn't need it its a shock unit that can cap and inflict beeld while taking none. It's entire goal in life is to generate as much value as fast as it can. I think it could benifit from shared vet because I'd like to see that Supression on occasion but outside dying immediately its always worth it even if it's ONLY capping while you focus your fighting infantry on winning the combat portion.

Too much durability is unfair to play against. Remember how you were saying about the scout car with penals exploiting your lack of AT? the knky faction with AT at the cusp of the match is ostheer. We used to have more durable kubkes and because of how RNG armour is it was decided to be too strong for all its other perks.

Its a bit of a niche unit, but give it a use being conservative with it and you'll see how good it can be.

It needs changes because it is the worst unit against UKF especially against Tommies.

If Obersoldaten could come earlier like become accessible once you build a base, that would be just fine. This would fix the issues. It is already quite costy, therefore it should come a little earlier.

I think maybe some of you would think of this as a terrible idea but the thing is, OKW is a Light Vehicle meta, that has vehicles which performs worse overall, lacks AI choices even.

FHT is good but gets countered easily. Best strategy would be is to use it as a support unit. Pros do not use it because of that fact.

Luchs which many pros use, because there is not much choice and it lacks performance. It is not that good, needs certain adjustments, needs to perform better against Infantry, increase its DPS slightly, currently it is not that good, SHOULD NOT BE LIKE AS IT WAS BEFORE.

If I compare Osteehr. I think they are more balanced in many more certain situations. They have better support weapons AI vehicle choices, although Ostwind is not that good but certainly a better choice than Luchs and FHT combined.

It needs to have proper AI options because all they are good at only is AT. Even then Wehrmacht does better in AT and AI than OKW overall.

It is good against SU and USF but terrible against UKF. I just implemented my initial idea as a way to fix the issues between all the other factions. It needs to be balanced.

Against UKF, OKW just takes too much manpower losses if played properly. Vehicles are not at all good at countering Brits. Luchs is simply bad against Infantry compared to M20 Utility Car (Cheaper) , AEC (same DPS against Infantry and good against AT), T70 and other vehicle options, no matter how much cheaper or expensive, does better than Luchs overall.

I play this game a lot, so I know what I am talking about. Trying to give a balanced opinion over this delicate situation.

List of units that under perform to certain degree:

1./ MG34 is terrible against Tommies, surpression takes longer time espeically against other factions. The MG is the worst, does least damage, although has bigger ARC, there is no real benefits

2./ Kubelwagen, it is optional but is a derelict unit. The only unit I game I only see as a unit not meant to last. SU scout car can even be used if handled correctly till mid late game if possible, worked out for me. Kubel is trash. Vet speed being the slowest, why? BUFF AI would not be a problem for me and remove cap zones if necessary. It needs to serve more purpose, currently does not. It is rarely used.

3./ Raketenwerfer, not that it underperforms, just annoying for both sides. Needs adjustments, take camo away and other implementions that I have mentioned on this forum https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/245698/okw-raketenwerfer-performance/p5 the comment n.133. Just some ideas for better balancing, revamp.

4./ Leig18, has the worst AOE, if you play in game, you will definitely see a difference between any other mortar. Its range is not superior but is slightly better but at cost of having the least AOE, needs adjustments because it cant retreat. If you compare USF howizter which is more expensive has similiar range, it has the most devastating firepower in game, can damage vehicles even.

5./ Volks, the issue is, the versatility is what makes this unit underperform in terms of AI, great as AT but OKW needs proper AI options which it does not really have. The first post on of this discussion I believe would be nice changes to Volks. Either a choices between more AI.

6./ Sturmpios, although they come as the first unit in game, volks should be instead for a nerf in early gameplay instead for changing their overall performances for both volks and sturmpios in later game, for some adjustments. It drops like flies, can not be currently used properly, it is not that good a unit. Shines for a tiny while but becomes a useless combat unit later. That is why everyone takes volks instead.

7./ Obers, are great, just comes too late. Should come earlier if none of these options are adjusted or some of them. It is already a big deal when buying the unit because they do not excel when you purchase them. They start off with Kar98, can upgrade to MG34. They should be available in the accessible in HQ only when you build after your first base.


OKW needs some changes here and there to make it more balanced instead for taking Osteehr instead which seems to do better than OKW overall.

Ostheer is in a pretty bad spot right now not sure why you think Ostheer is universally better than OKW. This is especially true for 1v1.

Most of what you said is actually just your opinion, it´s a bit weird that you claim it´s "information".

OKW is terrible vs UKF on open maps but at this point in time there is not much that can be done about it. It´s just "asymetric" balance. It´s like arguing Ostheer is OP because every unit they have is good vs UKF. If you buff OKW they would be too OP in the Soviets/USF match-ups.

Now regarding the units you listed:

1. MG34 is not really good but it´s supposed to be like that. It´s a defensive MG that you can use to support your Volks. It´s not supposed to be a crutch unit like the MG42 is for Ostheer. All the MGs are in a decent spot other than .50 cal which is too good considering USF´s infantry power and the Dshk which is too bad. Dshk will get buffed in the next patch though.

2. Kübel I agree is too bad. Needs lower veterancy requirements and more utility so it doesn´t become useless after a few minutes.

3. Agree, needs readjustments

4. Leig is fine, veterancy requirements aren´t. Takes too long to vet up.

5. If you buff them USF and Soviets just get stomped. Right now they suck vs UKF but are good vs USF/Sov, I don´t think that this can be fixed and your solution isn´t the answer.

6. Sturms need lower veterancy requirements so they scale better. Other than that they are balanced.

7. Earlier Obers would be too OP. They are in a perfect spot. The reason why they aren´t great at vet 0 is because they face vet 2-3 allied infantry. Once Obers get to vet 2 they bullyany non-doc infantry unit in the entire game.

@blvckdream

I agree with the points you have agreed on. Keep Obers the way they are. Others needs changing

The real issue is most of the others. The Vet speed is too slow because the requirements are high, also due to the fact how they perform overall which makes it all the more difficult.

Why is Kubel the only vehicle in game made useless in after a short amount of time? There is no really no other vehicle that seems that way. It needs to serve more purpose. It is available but seems more or less derelict at times.

Buff its AI performance and remove cap. I really do not care about capping, since in most maps, it is crammed, it is not like you can flank every time.

Kubel, make it similar in terms of Universal Carrier. Currently, is it is usually a bad investment that can already decide the game, depending heavily on which maps your are on. Other vehicles do not have to be considered as much except Kubel.

Give it maybe twice the firepower it currently has. It is bad as it is being quite vulnerable, therefore it would be fair enough for it to do some more damage.

Before it could damage Universal Carriers Health nearly by half, now it does only 1/6 or 1/5. Hardly the way it was before, worse now. It is evident.

Give buff and increase price to 240-250 (around there). Give also some upgrades if possible. Universal Carrier in comparison serves better overall. Remove ability to Cap
____

Volks now. They are bad by default, terrible. Always lose to Tommies by default, usually able to kill 1-2 Tommies. Grens are better in some ways. If vehicles get buff, nerf volks. Or give them something else, as it is, it is problematic.

The following vehicles needing buff

Kubel
&
Luchs

those two since they perform overall worse than others in their tier and for their price in comparison.

____

Decrease the Vet requirements. The only units that I see are fine, in terms of gaining vet perfectly throughout my game experiences are

Volks
Obers
PanzerIV
Panther

These are the units, whose vet requirements are perfect as it is, since it does not take forever as the others. That really needs changing.

Others have incredibly a harder time, some never even high than vet 3, takes drastically more time because of some units lacking its performance to gain to that certain level

OKW as it stands, a faction that needs more development, and thinking through. Currently, there is just many issues. It would rather stick onto Wehrmacht since I personally think they are better overall, although does need slight adjustments but not as much as OKW.

I'm not sure why they didn't go for the passive xp gain for the Kubel.

I'm not sure why they didn't go for the passive xp gain for the Kubel.

Passive would be a bad idea.
Shared on the other hand seems to be pretty good for all units that can't reliably vet alone.

Passive would be a bad idea.
Shared on the other hand seems to be pretty good for all units that can't reliably vet alone.

Bad wording. Was referring to the shared vet they tried in some of the community patches.

just switch STG for mp-40 and buff their vet RA as they need it now for either meat shield with long range damage or CQC unit

Here are the nade changes I believe would be great. Volks will instead a steihandgranate like the Panzerfusiliers have.

Sturmpio has another option, flamethrower upgrade.

This will make Volks less reliant as they are, to spread out across these two units according to situations at hand.

Another aspect of seeing this as not OP is because Sturmpio will have 3 options
- Pzshrek AT
- Hazard Removal Package (Mine checking)
- Flamethrower (AI aggression)
- Have access to concussive grenade vet 2 (or 1) instead of vet 3.

There will be a difficult dilemma for Sturmpio because they would have to decide to sacrifice 2 of the 3 things, depending on the situation and scenario.

Volks will have access to
- MP40 upgrade (mp40s currently are not the greatest, should be adjusted) for close range
- MG42 or MG32 upgrade long range purposes
- Normal Grenade
- Have the Panzerfaust only with "long ranged upgrade"
- Have Firenade only with MP40 upgrade

Another dilemma, decrease their overall all round efficiency. Upgrade will decide whether you will lose Panzerfaust or Firenade. These are not all my final ideas. Still processing what would be the best changes for revamping Volks overall. These are my idea thus far. Anybody else got any other ideas?

Do you guys think that this will balance out the power, distinguish it between the two units Sturmpio and Volks instead of 1 unit "Volksgrenadiers" being the most heavily dependant, versatile, cost effective and reliant unit as it currently is?

It will cost them more than now. Volks will not be as versatile in many situations as before. Sound good thus far. Focus it between the two units according to the different situations. Not just choose volks because they simply adapt in many different situations.