I can't say where to go from here thematically, or for the health of the faction, but if the PZIV J were to be replaced, I would say replace it with something that adds micro (adds to the difficulty) of this commander. Currently the whole thing is very sexy, and I'll bet people will make it a staple- devs should throw a spanner into the works at this early stage so it's not too comfortable a pick. Radio is the key ease-of-life improvement to this pick IMO.
Why is the OKW PZIV less micro intensive? I mean the better armor doesnt mean that you can frontally attack well defended positions. And dont forget that the wehrmacht version comes significantly earlier.
Because it's simply a better version. I don't think you play it any different than the standard Ost version on the field, but it goes further in terms of your clicks. It's a simple ease of life addition.
The reason the KT was suggested is because it offers something new and unique to the Wehrmacht and OKW, instead of of giving OKW a bland Tiger I and Wehrmacht the somewhat unloved Tiger Ace. (I should also point out here that the Tiger I voted on in Smartie's original proposal was different to the first iteration the mod team gave us[This is not a criticism, just comparing]).
As for the OKW Pz4, there is a world of difference between the two versions and it fits perfectly within the theme of the commander.
I don't see how this commander falls into the SpecOps trap at all (different story with the OKW one, which is people suggested the Tiger Ace be moved there).
As Wehrmacht you simply cannot stall for a Tiger Ace (or a KT, if that change is done) because it would simply take too long in comparison to the Command Panther.
Giving Ost skirted p4 is not worth a doctrine slot. When USF replaces its regular Sherman with an Ez8 or gets m10s or with SU gets t34-85 instead of the 76 variant, these doctrinal tanks are worth it. But a p4 with skirts? Hardly an upgrade. Either I'd give them some special veterancy, like let's say +5 range at vet 2, or extra accuracy when stationary, or combat blitz which also increases acc on the move etc. Does the skirted p4 even get the better scatter stats from the OKW p4, let alone the 5 levels of vet (which it doesn't get)?
I think instead of p4, give T34 76 for 300/80. The Wehrmacht used Beutepanzers which are abandoned enemy tanks that are re-purposed.
According to the new Wehrmacht Commander getting OKW P4 with better armor right from the beginning, I made some comparrisons between OST P4 and OKW P4. They both have the same cannon (Penetration values) but different armor values.
Used penetration values are for mid range, cause it's the most common range for fighting.
TLTR: Reduce OKW and OST Vet 2 P4's armor a bit and in exchange increase hitpoints to survive a 5th shot and increase fuel from 140 to 150. That would make a difference between those variants and give you a real choice.
So here we go. All percentages show the chance of penetration. E.g. the USF 57mm AT gun penetrates the OKW P4 with 60% chance, OST P4 with 78%. That means, OST P4 survival chance is 18% worse.
Conclusions:
1. The higher armor value of OKW P4 doesnt matter when it comes to allied tank destroyers. They almost all penetrate with 100%. Same could be said about AT guns. The differences are marginal. You don't feel a difference ingame. For example the 6 pounder at gun penetrates OKW P4 with 85% chance. That menas you have a chance of 15% to survive, thats not even every 5th shot.
2. Better armor seems a bit stronger vs allied medium tanks. But even there, almost about 1 in 2 shots penetrates your OKW P4 at mid range. Thats not pretty much. And heavy mediums (T34/85 and Sherman E8) also don't care much about better P4 armor. They penetrate with ~65%, which means 2/3 of all shots fired will penetrate.
3. If you turn tables and look at the penetration values of the German Pak 40 vs T34/85 and Sherman E8 you can see similarities between Pak 40 and 6 Pounder:
Pak 40 vs T43/85 (160 armor): 125%
6 Pounder vs OST P4 (180 armor): 111%
=> Both at guns will always penetrate. The higher armor value doesnt matter.
Pak 40 vs Sherman E8 (215 armor): 93%
6 Pounder vs OKW P4 (234 armor): 85%
=> For having 19 armor more you get 8% higher chance of not getting penetrated. Thats neglectable.
T34/85 does nearly cost the same as OST P4 and Sherman E8 nearly costs the same as OKW P4.
BUT both allied heavy mediums do have more hitpoints, so they survive one more shot! And thats much more important in combat, than having a little bit more armor.
My proposal:
Reduce OKW and OST Vet 2 P4's armor from 234 to 215, to bring it in line with Sherman E8, but increase hitpoints from 640 to 720 and increase fuel from 140 to 150. That would make a huge difference and could help P4 to better compete in late game and would also give you a real choice.
Reduce OKW and OST Vet 2 P4's armor from 234 to 215, to bring it in line with Sherman E8, but increase hitpoints from 640 to 720 and increase fuel from 140 to 150. That would make a huge difference and could help P4 to better compete in late game and would also give you a real choice.
WOW, thx for this important post,your suggestions make a ton of sense!
The PzIV J has a bit better scatter also but weather it worth a ability slot is questionable.
I would suggest actually increasing the Penetration of the main gun or giving the unit tungsten rounds (similar to 76mm Sherman) since the PzIV is quite bad vs anything above Cromwell/vanilla Sherman/T-34/76.
That could make the unit worth it. Else one could try replacing it with hezter or JP4.
I do agree that chance to hit and penetrate by the the allied TDs make axis armor advantage no worth it and most axis tanks would perform better if their armor vet bonus was replaced with something else.
2. Better armor seems a bit stronger vs allied medium tanks. But even there, almost about 1 in 2 shots penetrates your OKW P4 at mid range. Thats not pretty much. And heavy mediums (T34/85 and Sherman E8) also don't care much about better P4 armor. They penetrate with ~65%, which means 2/3 of all shots fired will penetrate.
Even though I personally think the Jagdpanzer IV (instead of the Panzer 4 Ausf. J) would offer a more interesting strategic choice for Ostheer, I think you glossed over this part. 51% chance to get penned by Allied (premium) mediums at long range versus 67% chance is a pretty big deal, and it makes the P4J a much better stock tank than the Ostheer P4H. On top of that, the P4J also has better scatter values (better versus infantry) and gets better veterancy. And thirdly, Ostheer would get their hands on this quite enhanced version of the Panzer IV a lot sooner than OKW does.
A P4J at Ostheer T3 timing is very strong, and imo definitely worth a commander slot.
I don't think, that OST P4J gets the same Vet boni as OKW one.
And your argment with long range values doesn't matter, cause long range only affects max range. No allied player engages your P4 at long range... If anything, short range values should be looked at.
And timing isn't a real issue. Just compare costs:
Tank engagements are rarely fought at point blank range. Mid to long range are the stats that really matter.
Furthermore in your tech costs comparison you forgot that Ostheer starts with 15 more fuel. Add to that that Ostheer can generally fight the early-mid game with a 30 fuel vehicle while OKW needs 55 or 60 fuel vehicles (and that the 45 fuel Mechanized is the dominant meta), and that OKW needs to pay fuel for their medics, and Ostheer has a major advantage in Panzer IV timing.
If i add your numbers for the wehrmacht tech then i come to => 175fuel. Sure that the fuel numbers are correct? If yes, P4 would arrive at the same time!
@Sander:
I agree that the JP4 would offer more strategic differsity but would the mod team even consider giving the JP4 to Wehrmacht? OKW players asked for a Stug in Elite Armor before the revamp process started and the mod team said that this would not be an option because both units would have the same role...
@Sander93 that's not true. Almsot 80% of OKW players go Med truck in order to get Mechanized asap.
And even if, almost every Wehr player gets 1 Armored Car out for 30 fuel. So we have to add 30 + 175 = 205 fuel.
If OKW decides to got T2, then we have 20 fuel more for building and then maybe a Luchs for 60 (which by the way is much more durable and better than AC). Thats 80 + 175 = 255 fuel. Thats 50 fuel more, which means around 2 mins later. Again, salvaging not calculated.
OKW players asked for a Stug in Elite Armor before the revamp process started and the mod team said that this would not be an option because both units would have the same role...
If we're following the logic of the M10 for the USF and now the UKF, and the now Tiger for the OKW it makes sense for the OKW to have the StuG as well as a cheap doctrinal alternative to the Jagdpanzer IV, maybe it would open up the way for people to finally go something else besides Mech HQ? Hell if I know.
If we're following the logic of the M10 for the USF and now the UKF, and the now Tiger for the OKW it makes sense for the OKW to have the StuG as well as a cheap doctrinal alternative to the Jagdpanzer IV, maybe it would open up the way for people to finally go something else besides Mech HQ? Hell if I know.
Or, balance patches could rework OKW so that it doesn't need to go for specific tiers for healing base and it has actual light vehicles counter besides Mech hq units (something, something, something USF tech rework and unit switch).
But we gotta rework volks mp40 for the third time and lock actually viable infantry at behind doctrines.
#priorities
Or, balance patches could rework OKW so that it doesn't need to go for specific tiers for healing base and it has actual light vehicles counter besides Mech hq units (something, something, something USF tech rework and unit switch).
But we gotta rework volks mp40 for the third time and lock actually viable infantry at behind doctrines.
#priorities
I doubt it, OKW is on it's what, 3rd rework now I think? Yeah...
Or, balance patches could rework OKW so that it doesn't need to go for specific tiers for healing base and it has actual light vehicles counter besides Mech hq units (something, something, something USF tech rework and unit switch).
But we gotta rework volks mp40 for the third time and lock actually viable infantry at behind doctrines.
#priorities
The thing is, OKW can get enough healing out of medkits on 1v1 and rely on teammates on 2v2 upwards. While reliability is not the best, you have non tiered Raks.
The problem is not in the early tiers but the last tier IMO (half tech for faster Ober/JPIV).
The thing is, OKW can get enough healing out of medkits on 1v1 and rely on teammates on 2v2 upwards. While reliability is not the best, you have non tiered Raks.
The problem is not in the early tiers but the last tier IMO (half tech for faster Ober/JPIV).
A JPIV sounds more interesting than a PIV for OH.
"out of medkits on 1v1"
Doesn't change that it bars out heal per fuel when any other faction has that
"rely on teammates on 2v2 upwards"
Aka bad design, and one more inconsistency between teamgames and 1vs1
"The problem is not in the early tiers but the last tier IMO (half tech for faster Ober/JPIV)."
Even at half fuel tech it still won't be a light vehicle counter (nor it should be).
Mech is still the only way to counter light vehicle without hoping for faust and raketen to work.
No viable at infantry, no at mine. Puma is the life saving panic unit and this is the reason mech is meta.
The possibilities are limitless, for example replacing ir halftrack with an "ad hoc" panzerjaeger squad using some ost doc infantry model, and set the IDEAL cost to make it a balanced 2 at squad.
Ultimately, about teching.
There's no reason NOT TO change teching to begin with, and multiple threads that were proposing the "early ober jp4" like you said also IN THE VERY SAME POSTSproposed reasonable solutions that will keep tech costs identical while allowing for med hq and repair stations to be built regardless of tech choices (for example the ability to use one ht ability that cost as much as the upgrades and only set up the base for the upgrade, and can eventually become an hq by paying the tier cost).
I also want to ask a question to all those of the "there's medkits so it doesn't matter".
If there's no difference because of medkits and teamgames ost bunker why even oppose such changes to begin with ? Kinda hypocritical, we both know that anyone would rather get med hq than to use caches if he goes for med hq for obvious reasons.
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