Soviet - Airbourne feedback

At what range? Cherry picking ranges now?

Actually at range 35 the ST has less DPS than the K98 (range ST 1.446 K98 1.807 source Cruzz)

Your number might not wrong (it not even worth checking), "but they most certainly do not tell full story."

At the best possible spot, 7 range, where the near range of stg is set, so stg reached its peak dps while kar 98k obviously did not

So yeah, there's this 2 meters spot, least could we care that for the remaining range the difference is less and that at long range stv beat stg in terms of being an upgrade.

At the best possible spot, 7 range, where the near range of stg is set, so stg reached its peak dps while kar 98k obviously did not

Not even there:
DPS K98 3.77
DPS ST44 7.52

Increase = 3.75

Yeah, just read, 5 dps PER RIFLE doesn't make sense, i think he typoed

I do admit a mistake on the value, wasn't typo, but the value on stg was incorrect, I also re-checked to get to know how that mistake happened.

My original point still stands.

I do admit a mistake on the value, wasn't typo, but the value on stg was incorrect, I also re-checked to get to know how that mistake happened.

Nice to see that can admit a mistake.

My original point still stands.

And what point might that be?

I do admit a mistake on the value, wasn't typo, but the value on stg was incorrect, I also re-checked to get to know how that mistake happened.

My original point still stands.

So let's break it down.

Let's even consider 7 range as "close range", i'll concede that it is even more realistic than 1 range, and 34 range as long, so the conditions you chose.

Per rifle

Stv 2,121-0,766

Stg 3,75-0.104

Total

Stv 6,363-2.298

Stg 7.5-0,108

So, AT THE VERY BEST CASE, the close range difference between the two upgrades is 1,14 dps, and the long range difference, using 34, is 2.190 in favour of stv.

Stv cost 45, stg cost 60

How one ends up being "opie no brainer stg blob" and the other is "bad stv not worth upgrade" ?

I dont think SVTs are gonna be anywhere near the strength of the old Vickers Cons/Penals. Both those squads basically turned into terminators with any weapon drop considering how strong their vet is. I dont see SVTs affecting other factions because UKF and USF have much better options for upgrades. I really only think the SVT drops will have a major impact on Cons and CEs in which the SVTs can be pretty strong on them.

Not to mention back then cons could double equip and vickers/brens were arguably the best weapon drop in the game before they got nerfed.

Giving the Airborne Guards AT nades would help them snare tanks for the IL-2 Rocket Strafe.
They could be a useful way of helping to tip a tank battle in the Soviet's favour, especially if they had an anti-tank weapon package option.

sry shadowlink, i tried to say that SupremeStefan was playing dumb, not you

np. I'll invis this after I see you online.

Giving the Airborne Guards AT nades would help them snare tanks for the IL-2 Rocket Strafe.
They could be a useful way of helping to tip a tank battle in the Soviet's favour, especially if they had an anti-tank weapon package option.

Something different from Button to be sure. You can't go wrong with AT nades but given the fact that SVT drop means this commander will likely use Conscipt based builds I'm not sure if that is the best option seeing as how you'll likely already have AT nade squads. I would say Light AT mines but nobody ever uses those on Tank Hunters or REs anyway so it'd be pretty pointless. Maybe some kind of "Target Tread" clone?

On another note I feel like the Airborne Rally points are too squishy considering their fuel cost. Maybe consider removing the initial cost and make them free like beacons (but only able to reinforce Airborne Guards) and then add an upgrade cost that'll make the rally point have more HP/Armor and have enemy detection and such. It would also be cool if the upgraded Rally Point had weapon racks like Brit Forward Assembly (if the whole team game synergy thing ever becomes a serious concern).

Jesus its only svt not mg42 u are guys just ridiculus. Maybe sometimes u are right vipper but now this is just pathetic, enginers spam with svt new meta? Yeah because rear e. with bars are so meta right now. Or better why soviet enginers with vickers is not meta? I hope mod team is not stupid and will not listen cheap conspiracy theory.

Thank you!

Airborne from a design point of view:

CP 2 Airborne rally points
100mp/15fu

The ability is very cost efficient. Compared to UKF it is cheaper.
Especially in team-games where fuel is easier to get the ability is OP.

The ability to drop medic/buff supplies anywhere in the map is simply broken and far better than the Luftwaffe one.

CP 2 Paradrop Dshk HMG
125mp/50mu
At first glance the ability look fine but it can become really problematic due to Soviet support weapons mechanics. Manning these weapon with Penals/Airborne Guards will make Dhsk unflankable and with high DPS. Especially with the wider arc and sprint. Sprint should simply be removed.

With the increase in penetration the AP rounds could easily become a vet 1 ability (that could be moved to vet 1 for 0.5). The vet bonuses should also be look at because the vet 3 close DPS is still very high.

CP 3 Airborne Guards
360mp
Creating the ultimate long range unit for soviet with access to the "last man standing" and medical/buff drops is simply a step in the wrong direction since Ostheer luck any infatry that can fight this unit and even obers might be in trouble. Each faction has a strong range and this unit mess thing up.

The unit should bring something else to the table or the AI of regular Guard should simply be reduce (by making PTRS able to hit infatry only during "hit the ground", changed to timed ability for instance).

Maybe redesign the unit to be closer to IR&Pathfinder able to call in toned down off maps?

The ourah should be avoided in long range infatry since it can be used to kite CQC units, and the smoke grenades seem rather odd.

The smoke mechanism feels weird and can cause some issue allowing the unit to bypass enemy HMG and enter enemy base.If it is a animation issues change them to infiltration unit or built in airborne rally point?

CP 2 Airdrop weapons
45mu
This is a can of worms, for reason listed in previous post (difficult to be balance for all units that can pick it up,and so on...)pls do not open the can.

CP 10 IL-2 Sturmovik Rocket Run
100mu
The ability can prove power when used with ram.

In addition it seems good at killing support weapons, maybe change the damage similar to Tulips?

I dont think SVTs are gonna be anywhere near the strength of the old Vickers Cons/Penals. Both those squads basically turned into terminators with any weapon drop considering how strong their vet is. I dont see SVTs affecting other factions because UKF and USF have much better options for upgrades. I really only think the SVT drops will have a major impact on Cons and CEs in which the SVTs can be pretty strong on them.

Not to mention back then cons could double equip and vickers/brens were arguably the best weapon drop in the game before they got nerfed.

It is dirty cheap, and as showed, "unconventional units" such as Sappers for example, will end up with a powerful upgrade that cab fire on the move + eventual flamer.

CE will be troublesome but other units will as well

Add SU muni abundance and it being a 45 muni upgrade.

So let's break it down.

Let's even consider 7 range as "close range", i'll concede that it is even more realistic than 1 range, and 34 range as long, so the conditions you chose.

Per rifle

Stv 2,121-0,766

Stg 3,75-0.104

Total

Stv 6,363-2.298

Stg 7.5-0,108

So, AT THE VERY BEST CASE, the close range difference between the two upgrades is 1,14 dps, and the long range difference, using 34, is 2.190 in favour of stv.

Stv cost 45, stg cost 60

How one ends up being "opie no brainer stg blob" and the other is "bad stv not worth upgrade" ?

Reminder that STG have a special property called focus fire. This makes this types of weapons to do "hidden" damage with re-rolls on miss shots.

Besides the point been if the upgrade is worthy or not for SU, but if it would cause any issues with other faction units.

CE get no RA and remain to be a 4 man squad. They are squishy as they can be and i can't remember the reinforce cost atm.

I would love seeing cast of top level games on 2v2 "abusing" this kinds of combinations cause it seems a bit too far fetched at the moment.

I appreciate your use of scare-quotes, ElChino, because it's silly to call teammates working together abuse.

The most recent visible example is probably price/prodi using vickers-armed penals in the 2v2 tournament. I've done this a few times with a friend, specifically to use 'for mother russia', but I think it's ridiculous to think that the game will get imbalanced because people are working together and picking commanders that synergize for one specific function.

Nevermind how uncommon it is since most people play random and barely bother coordinating where mines are let alone if they should pick specific commanders of specific armies to then dedicate munitions from one player to the other.

Reminder that STG have a special property called focus fire. This makes this types of weapons to do "hidden" damage with re-rolls on miss shots.

Besides the point been if the upgrade is worthy or not for SU, but if it would cause any issues with other faction units.

CE get no RA and remain to be a 4 man squad. They are squishy as they can be and i can't remember the reinforce cost atm.

I would love seeing cast of top level games on 2v2 "abusing" this kinds of combinations cause it seems a bit too far fetched at the moment.

No, they don't, focus fire is set to false for any type of stg

"Besides the point been if the upgrade is worthy or not for SU, but if it would cause any issues with other faction units."

No, the point was Katitof calling stv upgrade for cons bad/mediocre when they are basically stg volks upgrade that angered so many people. (Which, btw, neither i personally approve as showed multiple times)

Speaking of veterancy, let's not forget the over the top accuracy bonuses cons get intended for mosin nagant.

Is early to call stv op, but is surely too early to call it bad and none of the actual numbers support such claim.

"CE get no RA and remain to be a 4 man squad."

Spammability + raw dps may be the issue.
Cons merge may easily override the issue of RA.

If that's not the case chances are Royal engies with flamers and 5 men upgrade + combat bonuses will be.

If not chances are...

Airdropped weapon packages are simply a bad idea on any side and single nation.
Just give a direct upgrade to any unit actually meant to use that--->fixed

C.E. engineer with flamer have great shock value when reinforced with conscripts merge, now they will also have access to SVT making them even stronger.

Reminder that STG have a special property called focus fire. This makes this types of weapons to do "hidden" damage with re-rolls on miss shots.

Besides the point been if the upgrade is worthy or not for SU, but if it would cause any issues with other faction units.

CE get no RA and remain to be a 4 man squad. They are squishy as they can be and i can't remember the reinforce cost atm.

I would love seeing cast of top level games on 2v2 "abusing" this kinds of combinations cause it seems a bit too far fetched at the moment.

i thought we debunked this in the cruzz thread

No, they don't, focus fire is set to false for any type of stg

Focus fire "true", means exactly what it implies. It provides no benefit.
HMGs, SMGs and ARs have this property set to false, which means they have this "hidden" reroll on a small cone from the model they are targeting.

Conscripts get's a +10% accuracy at vet 3. The 40% acc at vet 2 mirrors that of Grens. Penals are hardly broken at late stages of the game as their main appeal is early on, with 2x 30% accuracy. Maybe the spammility of cons pushes it over the top, but as you say, early to say SVT OP.

Received accuracy through merge remains to be the one of the model at vet 0 and the modifiers of the squad on which it is merging too. Merging conscripts with CE only makes sense to keep a flamer squad in the front.

Royal engineers vet bonuses are really poor compared to fighting infantry squads (no accuracy bonus).


I don't see SVT breaking OTHER factions. I don't see SVT been better than the alternatives other factions have. I can see a possibility of Cons + SVT/PPSH been good.

i thought we debunked this in the cruzz thread

I missed that part. From what i remembered that's how cruzz described how it works and from personal test (i only did a test in the past to see how far away it could hit and if it hit different squads)

From what i read, Redterror and Mr Smith have completely different test results. One is based more in a model vs model and the other on a squad level. Nothing conclusive.