Thoughts on Panzergrenadiers

If you are referring to stock Panzergrenadiers, you have been misinformed. Assume both squads have equal cover. Long range they lose to DP-28 Guards, they lose to Shocks closing the distance, but they absolutely curbstomp Cons from mid range to close range (unless the Cons has the PPSh-41 upgrade). With G43s (which almost everyone agrees to be a downgrade), Panzergrenadiers win vs Cons at all ranges, even far.

I mean riflemen not conscripts, my bad

Oh no I did not mean to give them the IR STG44s themselves, just the concept of DPS distribution that that upgrade uses (basically the same principle as LMGs).

Panzergrenadiers and IR STG44 Obers are very similar squads, yet one is meh (Pgrens) and the other is god tier (IR STG Obers). Obers do not have any distinct advantages in RA, have the same model count, and essentially the same weapons profile (assault rifles). They even have less raw DPS at full strength (although they do get a way better accuracy modifier vs cover). Yet the Obers are so much better. Imo that is in large part because of this mechanic where they get to keep most of their DPS up until the last two models. Even though it might a bit of a boring solution, I personally think it's one of the best ways to

So I would propose roughly:

- Panzergrenadiers weapons loadout changed from 4x STG44 to 2x STG44 and 2x MP40 (or Kar 98K or G43)

- STG44 DPS changed from (4x) 15.5 to (2x) 24 at range 5 (as an example)

- Other weapons DPS is (2x) 7 at range 5.

- Panzerschreck upgrade replaces the 2x STG44s with 2x Panzerschrecks.

- These changes would let the Panzergrenadiers have the same DPS at full strength as they currently have (62 at range 5) but would let them retain roughly 75% of this DPS on the last two models, as opposed to now where they lose 25% DPS per model drop (so only 50% DPS left with last two models). This 75% of DPS focussed on the two assault rifles is the same distribution profile that the IR STG44 Obers have.

This sounds like the best solution IMO.

It would also make the G43 upgrade serve an actual purpose if those would replace the 2 mp40's for 45 (?) muni.

Edit: you already mentioned this

This sounds like the best solution IMO.

It would also make the G43 upgrade serve an actual purpose if those would replace the 2 mp40's for 45 (?) muni.

Edit: you already mentioned this

G43 upgrade would make it OP.

100% can bet on that

This sounds like the best solution IMO.

It would also make the G43 upgrade serve an actual purpose if those would replace the 2 mp40's for 45 (?) muni.

Edit: you already mentioned this

Actually I didn't think about the G43 upgrade yet. To be frank I think that if their STG44 profile were to be changed to the one I suggested, it's probably best they just lose access to the G43 upgrade.

Actually I didn't think about the G43 upgrade yet. To be frank I think that if their STG44 profile were to be changed to the one I suggested, it's probably best they just lose access to the G43 upgrade.

Or replace both mp40's and one of the improved stg's, so it becomes more of a trade-off. (Not sure if this is possible tho, with how weapon slots work in this game.)

Or replace the 2 mp40's with gren G43's instead of pgren G43's.


But even if it got removed, I doubt anyone would miss it.

I like the idea of doubling up the stg dps and giving it 2 with 2 mp40.

Seems like a smart idea to make the squad viable

Or replace both mp40's and one of the improved stg's, so it becomes more of a trade-off. (Not sure if this is possible tho, with how weapon slots work in this game.)

Or replace the 2 mp40's with gren G43's instead of pgren G43's.


But even if it got removed, I doubt anyone would miss it.

The only way I can see G43s work in my proposal is if they'd get high long range DPS (instead of low to mid range) and replace the STG44s. Basically they would turn Pgrens into slightly worse LMG34 Obersoldaten.

But that would put these G43s in a completely opposite profile of what they do for Grenadiers (and Panzerfusiliers) which might make things confusing.

Sorry if you feel like it is a bit off topic (i think not), but would a similar system (2 stg with x2 dps and 2 mp40) and 0.95/1.0 RA be the key to balance stumrpioneers as well ?

Think about it, it bleeds more early game, but helps the squad mid and late game against double bars and such (for the same reason as panzergrens) while punishing early and mid game mistakes with an higher mp bleed.

And if they get doubleshreck all they are left with is mp40.

Edit: forgot about flamethrower, maybe it could be made to replace 1 stg tho

Should they be made cheaper to 300-320 manpower instead. They initally drop like flies, should be some compensation. Also due to the lack of utility.


For something to compensate for their price.

Have another upgrade, option or utility which would be nice. Just one of them. Here are the options that I think it would, may compensate:

-Flamethrower upgrade, for more AI focused purposes (which would be interesting, AI purpose choice)

or

-Flamenade (to promote aggressiveness, AI)

or

-Phosphorous smoke like what Obers have

or

MG42 upgrade

or

-Smoke grenade

or

-Support Package (like the German Infantry doctrine for Pzgrens but by default instead, which I think would suit it best)

or

Nothing, Price of Pzgrens decrease to around 300 manpower instead


Currently, they have only a bundle nade. Every other infantry in game has definitely more than just one utility. Considering its cost, due to its lacking utility, it should be decreased. No buffs required.

Either Decrease price or Give it another utility/option

If given an option, price will still be the same but currently I do not see why they should be costing that much.

I do not see how MP40s will make them any better.

Got an interesting idea. Give upgrade called "Armour vest" costs 70 ammo. They become harder to hit. Sounds like an interesting investment.

For its lacking utility and options.

Pgrens really need some sort of utility option that's for sure. Seeing more phosphorous might be nice, it's largely an allied tool but it would be great to see it on some axis units.

An AI upgrade or an AT upgrade should be their route. Armored vests would be decent as it's all about survivability and pgrens do respectable damage but are a bit weak when fighting double bar or double bren units 1v1.

Don't like the fokus on PnzGrens.

Why not give Ostheer's Pio standard K98, close-combat upgrade with MP40.

PnzGrn can upgrade 1*Panzerschreck + 1* Panzerschreck.

Give Sturmtruppen PPsh blueprint instead of MP40, so weapon-profiles get more logic.

Make Pzgrens 300 manpower currently for its lacking utility and choices.

I would agree on it being for the way it is currently as it is. But why should it be that much is the question?


What are the differences between Penals and Pzgrens Price and performance and accessibility!

It has only a bundle grenade, and guys with Stg44. Upgrade option Pzshreks for 100 ammo.

It is like comparing exactly to Penals. All SVT semi automatic rifles with Satchel. Upgrade option PTRS 60 that include AT satchel (costs ammo). What is the difference really.

SVT (still strong) less stronger than STG44.
Penal Squad 6 man is Bigger than 4 man Pzgrens

I say that is balanced. Make it 300 manpower. Same counterparts as Penals. Nothing better, nothing worse. What is the major difference really?

Because there is no real major differences.


Otherwise convince anyone for the way it currently is cuz I think the price is unjust. Even then, Osteehr would still have to consistently heavily rely on Grens since they are a better versatile support unit.

Conclusion: Make Panzergrenadiers 300 manpower.

It comes later anyway, what is the likelihood of them getting more of those then Grens when that is their only main option in the beginning. It has to be an alternative rather than something that feels too costy and lacking options. It is fair to decrease its price.

Make Pzgrens 300 manpower currently for its lacking utility and choices.

I would agree on it being for the way it is currently as it is. But why should it be that much is the question?


What are the differences between Penals and Pzgrens Price and performance and accessibility!

It has only a bundle grenade, and guys with Stg44. Upgrade option Pzshreks for 100 ammo.

It is like comparing exactly to Penals. All SVT semi automatic rifles with Satchel. Upgrade option PTRS 60 that include AT satchel (costs ammo). What is the difference really.

SVT (still strong) less stronger than STG44.
Penal Squad 6 man is Bigger than 4 man Pzgrens

I say that is balanced. Make it 300 manpower. Same counterparts as Penals. Nothing better, nothing worse. What is the major difference really?

Because there is no real major differences.


Otherwise convince anyone for the way it currently is cuz I think the price is unjust. Even then, Osteehr would still have to consistently heavily rely on Grens since they are a better versatile support unit.

Conclusion: Make Panzergrenadiers 300 manpower.

It comes later anyway, what is the likelihood of them getting more of those then Grens when that is their only main option in the beginning. It has to be an alternative rather than something that feels too costy and lacking options. It is fair to decrease its price.

You're entirely missing the engagement ranges, the veterancy bonuses, squad size and timing.

Pgrens come far later and will be forced to fight vetted Penals who get "To the Last Man" dealy which makes them stronger as the squad sizes go down. 6 guys at medium to max range will beat up Pgrens who are an assault like unit that performs better at med to low range.

As simple price adjustment wouldn't help. Keeping the price and adding 5th man would be a step in the right direction as indirect fire makes a 4 man squad so vulnerable.

It's highly likely you'll face 3-4 penals and 2 guardsman, and a flamer which puts Pgren at a straight up disadvantage. They'll also lose to Shocks, another popular pick. They have no real advantages which is why they aren't used that much.

You're entirely missing the engagement ranges, the veterancy bonuses, squad size and timing.

Pgrens come far later and will be forced to fight vetted Penals who get "To the Last Man" dealy which makes them stronger as the squad sizes go down. 6 guys at medium to max range will beat up Pgrens who are an assault like unit that performs better at med to low range.

As simple price adjustment wouldn't help. Keeping the price and adding 5th man would be a step in the right direction as indirect fire makes a 4 man squad so vulnerable.

It's highly likely you'll face 3-4 penals and 2 guardsman, and a flamer which puts Pgren at a straight up disadvantage. They'll also lose to Shocks, another popular pick. They have no real advantages which is why they aren't used that much.

I think the best first step for them in order to get them on the field is by setting their price to 300 manpower.

You are right of the fact that it has no real advantages. The likelihood that anyone would use it. For its current price, it has to have more. It is lackluster currently. Nobody picks it because it is so! Giving it armour like what Shocks have is a good step instead of 5 man I believe. To also suit Wehrmacht overall being 4 man and all. Pzgrens should have armour.


I would understand if they were versatile but they are not. They are only 4 man. They do not deserve now to be 340 for the way they are currently. It should have better survivability for that price or something more!!!

It would definitely suit for them to have 5 man for their current price and performance or amour. 4 man is simply not worth the price currently as they drop like flies. Lacks utterly in utility also. Price is simply unjust.

If I had to compare to a Sturmpio. I would definitely take it with every chance since it has much more utility and better capabilities. Cheaper also that comes with a lot more pros than cons. Panzergrenadiers are just not worth it. They need to made cheaper or give them armour like what the Shocks have. Survivability needs to be increased for that price.

340 manpower, for what exactly, costing you more manpower without any real effectiveness?

Even to compare it to Obers. I would even pick Obers any time since they perform better and have more utility for that price.

I did a test:

Pzgrens vs Obers (with MG34 upgrade)

Obers won surprisingly medium range which is supposed to be Pzgrens specialty but that its utter nonsense. Long range Pzgrens lost miserably.

Close range, Pzgrens won usually standing with 1 - 2 models left.


Pzgrens should not be anywhere near the price of 340 manpower for the way they currently are. They are simply lackluster for that price. They need better survivability like armour, what shocks have. It is not a good a unit or even a supportive one. That is why grens are always chosen.

The reason why I would want to pick Pzgrens, is if stands out in one role, which it does not. It fails miserably to suit its current role. It is lacking, the only real purpose Pzgrens have only is AT. No one wants that because Pak is a better cost effective choice that is even more viable in most case scenarios.

Devs needs to evaluate the units according to how often they are purchased and performance. Pzgrens definitely stand at the bottom of the list as the least purchased unit for its overall effectiveness!

You could make pzgren 100 mp, they still wouldn't be good, only cheap. This is the same way okw has been gutted over the years. Only difference is pzgren were never good.

If they are getting durability it shouldn't be an extra man or armour it should be a damage reduction like rangers have that way they don't get wiped by explosives on approach.

If they are getting durability it shouldn't be an extra man or armour it should be a damage reduction like rangers have that way they don't get wiped by explosives on approach.

They should keep the iconic 4 man and get armour + "to the last man"

If they are getting durability it shouldn't be an extra man or armour it should be a damage reduction like rangers have that way they don't get wiped by explosives on approach.

That is definitely what it needs. To take less damage then it currently does or to make them survive better.

I still think their cost should be reduced to 300 manpower because there no is reason for them costing that much. If we talk about Obersoldaten, yes they deserve a cost of 340 manpower but definitely not Pzgrens for their overall lacking durability, capability, utility and firepower in comparison.

It needs changes. It will help boost Osteehr in some ways for their lacking units.

Fix Pzgrens
Fix Ostwind
Then, it will solve most of Osteehrs issues.