Why does the Firefly have to suck so much?
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Posts: 4474
I updated the stats but the Firefly is still the worst in terms of TTK an DPS. So yeah my argument still stands.your argument still stand id u don't count all the other perks the FF has, su 85 has the best dps cause it has no rotating turret, the FF is almost the same as the m36 with better accuracy access to tulips, same armor as a medium tank, 45 mid range instead of 30 so more accuracy and pen
ff is not the worst TD it's the same as other
Posts: 4474
Maybe dont forget to mention that even at vet 3 it has 210 far penetration while SU 85 and Jackson have 286. Jackson also has HVAP rounds that give it 325 far penetration at vet 3. It doesn´t make any difference against Panthers and P4s but against Tiger and KT the Firefly will bounce more often than the cheaper Jackson and SU85.
210 pen is just 10 less than the other while it gets 45 mid range so ff only has worse pen at 60 range at 50 it should have more already
and 40 more damage at vet 3 mean 1 less shot for medium tank, that's huge, and only 4 shoot to kill a panther (which now has much worse armor)
Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1
your argument still stand id u don't count all the other perks the FF has, su 85 has the best dps cause it has no rotating turret, the FF is almost the same as the m36 with better accuracy access to tulips, same armor as a medium tank, 45 mid range instead of 30 so more accuracy and pen
ff is not the worst TD it's the same as other
FF has worst penetration of SU85 and Jackson, especially with vet. It also has the worst mobility, it cant chase retreating tanks unlike Jacksons. It costs way more than and other medium TD and you will have to burn 100s of munis to make it somewhat effective. The only thing the FF has going for it is it´s accuracy. The fact that it has a turret makes very little diffrence considering the rotation speed is lower than the turn speed of other medium casemate TDs.
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210 pen is just 10 less than the other while it gets 45 mid range so ff only has worse pen at 60 range at 50 it should have more already
and 40 more damage at vet 3 mean 1 less shot for medium tank, that's huge, and only 4 shoot to kill a panther (which now has much worse armor)
325-210= 115 less pen than vet 3 jackson HVAP
286-210= 76 less pen than vet 3 jackson and SU 85
Needing less shots to kill a tank is only meaningfull when it results in less TTK but in FF case it doesn´t as it still needs more time to kill Panthers and Tigers than other TDs.
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u ignore ant positive thing about the FF (u still have to count he 45 mid range) and most engagement dont happen in 60 range and as i said the FF has actual medium tank armor so a medium tank can't just kill it from the front like a su 85
FF has worst penetration of SU85 and Jackson, especially with vet. It also has the worst mobility, it cant chase retreating tanks unlike Jacksons. It costs way more than and other medium TD and you will have to burn 100s of munis to make it somewhat effective. The only thing the FF has going for it is it´s accuracy. The fact that it has a turret makes very little diffrence considering the rotation speed is lower than the turn speed of other medium casemate TDs.
it's the only tanks that with vet needs 1 less shoot to kill a medium tank, i take that over pen any day as pen is chance based damage is not ( and yes 1 lees shoot for panther and heavy tank too)
even if 1 shoot doesn't pen it would still take only 4 like any other tank but the difference in pen is not that big (as most armor have been nerfed)
Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1
u ignore ant positive thing about the FF (u still have to count he 45 mid range) and most engagement dont happen in 60 range and as i said the FF has actual medium tank armor so a medium tank can't just kill it from the front like a su 85
it's the only tanks that with vet needs 1 less shoot to kill a medium tank, i take that over pen any day as pen is chance based damage is not ( and yes 1 lees shoot for panther and heavy tank too)
FF armor is 160. SU 85 is 140 and Jackson 130. You want to tell me that 20 armor makes a huge difference now? The FF has the worst survivability by far when you consider it´s huge target size and bad mobility. Jacksons can easily get out of a double Raks range for example while a FF has little chance and most often just dies.
Posts: 4474
quote u hypocrite: Firefly: 260/240/210 (less far penetration than cheaper SU85 and Jackson, wtf?) it's 10 pen
FF armor is 160. SU 85 is 140 and Jackson 130. You want to tell me that 20 armor makes a huge difference now? The FF has the worst survivability by far when you consider it´s huge target size and bad mobility. Jacksons can easily get out of a double Raks range for example while a FF has little chance and most often just dies.
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quote u hypocrite: Firefly: 260/240/210 (less far penetration than cheaper SU85 and Jackson, wtf?) it's 10 pen
FF doesn´t get penetration buff with vet unlike Jackson and SU85
325-210= 115 less pen than vet 3 jackson HVAP
286-210= 76 less pen than vet 3 jackson and SU 85
Posts: 4474
keep deflecting u were talking about vet 0 pen don't derail so u can be right, u are an hypocrite and only like to look at what further proves ur argument
325-210= 115 less pen than vet 3 jackson HVAP
286-210= 76 less pen than vet 3 jackson and SU 85
Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1
keep deflecting u were talking about vet 0 pen don't derail so u can be right, u are an hypocrite and only like to look at what further proves ur argument
When did I say that I exclusively talk about vet 0? It´s simply too much work to give stats for all vet levels in the OP.
Posts: 4474
When did I say that I exclusively talk about vet 0? It´s simply too much work to give stats for all vet levels in the OP.
Penetration
Jackson: 260/240/220
SU-85: 240/230/220
Firefly: 260/240/210 (less far penetration than cheaper SU85 and Jackson, wtf?)
JP4: 200/185/175
Stug: 200/185/175
still trying to deflect i see
btw why u count hvap and not tulpis ? are hvap muni free now ?
at this point this is just a troll thread, u invented the stats to make FF look bad, when found out and showed it has similar stats to other u keep saying it' ultra bad, keeep deflecting and ignore anything the FF has over other units, u are just a fan boy
Posts: 591 | Subs: 1
"much like everyone else"
Do you even know what the costs are for everyone else?
OKW for example (including all side tech as you did in your example) comes to 265 fuel. OKW starts with 5 so this is really 260
UKF (to get a FF and a Croc) comes to 205. UKF starts with 20, so this is 185
Tell me, how at all are these two values comparable?
I specifically said all the side tech makes them comprable, but they do have an advantage if they want to rush and not upgrade anything else along the way
30 T1, 115 T2, 15 T1.5, 50 T2.5, Grenades 10, Weapons 15, Bolster 35. 270 - 20 initial = 250.
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Maybe dont forget to mention that even at vet 3 it has 210 far penetration while SU 85 and Jackson have 286. Jackson also has HVAP rounds that give it 325 far penetration at vet 3. It doesn´t make any difference against Panthers and P4s but against Tiger and KT the Firefly will bounce more often than the cheaper Jackson and SU85.
A FF vs a Tiger or KT can easily penetrate them with Tulips.
A vetted FF will anything with 640 HP with 3 shot.
The M36 is designed to be OP because USF lack premium tanks, UKF do not. There is no real reason for the FF to be buffed.
If one want the FF to be more consistent one has to redesign the Tulips.
Posts: 4474
vipper there is no point in talking to him look above where he literally deflects anything u say to him even denying what he wrote and ignoring any positive thing about FF
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
I am starting to wonder if all the people that think FF is great only play 3v3 and 4v4 because I don´t see good players building FF in 1v1 and rarely in 2v2.
Not seeing a unit does not mean that it is not good. Dshk was OP for years and yet most people used maxims.
If (it is true and) FF is not used it can simply mean that UKF have enough AT without it and that simply does not justify buffing the unit.
Posts: 2358
FF is fine as everylne says and a little price drop was the onlu possible buff, but its not neccesary at all
Posts: 4474
OP wants to use FF as M36 on UKF, a brawler high mobility T4 TD, thats the problem. I see a lot of unproductive discussions because OP doesnt want to understand.the FF is more of a brawler than the jackson actually as it has Sherman armor
FF is fine as everylne says and a little price drop was the onlu possible buff, but its not neccesary at all
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
the FF is more of a brawler than the jackson actually as it has Sherman armor
And what is it going to brawl against with that mobility and rate of fire? Luchs?
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