Discuss for the votes

It is broken because of team-play, by pushing penals etc. The funktion should be replaced by an upgrade for 1x light Vickers for Tommies like the LMG42 upgrade for Grens. The M3 should get maybe a little aura like OKW Opel Blitz.

The current truck is simply a fail-design.
Or what would you think about Volks/Obers with 2xLMG42 dropped by an Ostheer-Teammate?

Do you even know stats of dropped vickers? It's basically a DP for 60 munitions and 2x DP are worse than a single LMG42. Penals armed with them are no more OP than Guards with their 2xDP or rifles with m1919

Do you even know stats of dropped vickers? It's basically a DP for 60 munitions and 2x DP are worse than a single LMG42. Penals armed with them are no more OP than Guards with their 2xDP or rifles with m1919

There's the fact they get 30% increase in accuracy twice which makes Penals so lethal with anything they pick up.

On the topic, we do have some ideas being formulated regarding some of the commanders. We might have details soon? I'd have to ask.

Do you even know stats of dropped vickers? It's basically a DP for 60 munitions and 2x DP are worse than a single LMG42. Penals armed with them are no more OP than Guards with their 2xDP or rifles with m1919

Do you know that SU has six men squads and axis has 4/5 men squads which makes a direct dp to mg42 dps comparison a bit invalid.

Oh and penals have huge accuracy with vet which has a huge impact on lmgs.

There's the fact they get 30% increase in accuracy twice which makes Penals so lethal with anything they pick up.

On the topic, we do have some ideas being formulated regarding some of the commanders. We might have details soon? I'd have to ask.

They also get a lot less RA compared to riflemen or sections so they evaporate when focus fired and bleed much more compared to them despite costing and reinforcing for similar price, so how is that OP compared to M1919/Bar rifles or double bren IS?

Soviet Airborne could get some "Lend Lease" units: The UK carrier would be a really good choice.
US or UK AT gun could also be an option.

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UK could be transported by air, but I wondered had questions:
- it possible to implement the dropping of UK into the rear of the enemy?
What role will the UK then do?
- reinforcement beacon?
- a camouflage scout who opens a small area on the map or works like a mini IR half-track?
- another role?

They also get a lot less RA compared to riflemen or sections so they evaporate when focus fired and bleed much more compared to them despite costing and reinforcing for similar price, so how is that OP compared to M1919/Bar rifles or double bren IS?

6 men + the to the last man passive (RA, cooldown and accuracy I think). The cost efficiency is a little all over the place, but as squads theyre in the same range.

Also, I looked at your previous statement about vickers vs DPs and its just false. Vickers are about halfway in between DPs and 1919s/lmg42s at max range.

Looked more at what you said, and also, 2x DPs arent worse than a single lmg42. Perhaps you meant that theyre worse than a single lmg42 + gren kar98, but even thats not true (at least, not at max range, which is the range you care about with lmgs).

Using the old brens DPS for the vickers DPS (as the vickers was an exact copy except it had a slightly faster reload time iirc) and applying penals' 1.69 accuracy multiplier at max vet, vet 3 penals with double vickers have 39.65 DPS at max range. Vet 3 guards with DPs have 27.14 DPS (given that im not exactly sure on the ptrs calculations, i appoximated the ptrs infantry damage as 28, doubling the DPS on cruzz's spreadsheet). Vetted obers have 37.667 DPS.

Vickers penals DPS/DP guards DPS = 146%

Guards do have anti tank capabilities, button, hit the dirt, their grenade, and more durability. Penals have to the last man and satchels.

6 men + the to the last man passive (RA, cooldown and accuracy I think). The cost efficiency is a little all over the place, but as squads theyre in the same range.

Also, I looked at your previous statement about vickers vs DPs and its just false. Vickers are about halfway in between DPs and 1919s/lmg42s at max range.

Looked more at what you said, and also, 2x DPs arent worse than a single lmg42. Perhaps you meant that theyre worse than a single lmg42 + gren kar98, but even thats not true (at least, not at max range, which is the range you care about with lmgs).

Isnt M3 Vickers just reskinned Bren with same DPS curve, as far as I'm aware both weapons got nerfed unless droppable Vickers was left out for some reason.

Also Guards with 2xDP still deal less dps than Grens with LMG42 (thanks to PTRS)

As for Penals vet1 - it's 3% RA for dead model, by the time you'll get more than 10% bonus you already need to retreat. Besides point still stand about 2xBren IS and LMG/Bar rifles - they are better or at least equal to Penals with 2xDP, there is no reason to single out Penals considering their cost

On the topic, we do have some ideas being formulated regarding some of the commanders. We might have details soon? I'd have to ask.

That would be great.

Can BalanceTeam share with this ideas later on? Many people really wonder how you are planning to expend and change some of those proposals. Don't take me wrong, i don't want a offical statement just what do you think currently on certain design concepts. Especially soviet commanders aren't clear.

For example:
- what do you see RedBanner T34? Is it gonna be buffed command tank with aura or will it have a list of abililities to use?
- In what form do you want to create Assault Guards? Just guarded skin shock troopers or maybe something totally diffrent, more mid range unit?
- What do you mean by "Panzergrenadier Assault Package"? A long range upgrade or more like utility upgrade like it was in german infantry?
- How do you see the TigerAce changes or revamped KT?

More you guys describe how you exactly see those commanders will definitely help us give more reliable vote.

Another doctrine with a pershing in it...

Do you know that SU has six men squads and axis has 4/5 men squads which makes a direct dp to mg42 dps comparison a bit invalid.

So... LMG paras most op thing in game since forever then?
Must be why its so meta unit in 100% of games.

There's the fact they get 30% increase in accuracy twice which makes Penals so lethal with anything they pick up.

On the topic, we do have some ideas being formulated regarding some of the commanders. We might have details soon? I'd have to ask.

I'd rather have a weapon upgrade then huge accuracy vet.
And panzerfussiliers and living proof that both can exist at the same time even.

Raw vet scaling doesn't really compensate the possibility of getting a weapon upgrade, especially in late game when you have to rebuild squad and have it contest against vetted, upgraded inf.

Isnt M3 Vickers just reskinned Bren with same DPS curve, as far as I'm aware both weapons got nerfed unless droppable Vickers was left out for some reason.

That's wrong - brens were nerfed, vickers weren't. Even then, current brens are still slightly better than DPs, so vickers and old brens were noticeably better.

Also Guards with 2xDP still deal less dps than Grens with LMG42 (thanks to PTRS)

That's also wrong - it's even less applicable when you consider the fact that DPS calculations don't factor in the fact that engagements start with a single shot, favoring the ptrs.

As for Penals vet1 - it's 3% RA for dead model, by the time you'll get more than 10% bonus you already need to retreat. Besides point still stand about 2xBren IS and LMG/Bar rifles - they are better or at least equal to Penals with 2xDP, there is no reason to single out Penals considering their cost

Almost entirely wrong or irrelevant. DP penals (not vickers) are roughly equivalent to double bren sections, sure. Vickers penals destroy both (again, assuming all squads vetted).

Besides the point, but if you're retreating squads at 2-3 models, there might be a l2p issue somewhere.

I'd rather have a weapon upgrade then huge accuracy vet.
And panzerfussiliers and living proof that both can exist at the same time even.

And Fusis can also pick up dropped weapons for bonus fun.

Admittedly they are a piniata to rival Guards given the G43's can't be dropped but count for your weapon loss threshold. But whatcha gonna do.

Point is commanders bring synergies and, no, one UKF player having to invest 1000 muni in a team game to equip everyone with middle ground LMGs is not going to break anything more than an OKW fuel rush or the existence of the command Panther.

I'd rather have a weapon upgrade then huge accuracy vet.
And panzerfussiliers and living proof that both can exist at the same time even..

Nowadays Pfussies only get the +40% accuracy that almost every Axis squad gets.

In fact, Pfussies are the living proof that both huge accuracy vet and weapon upgrades should not exist at the same time since their additional +20% accuracy was changed to faster capping speed a long time ago.

Nowadays Pfussies only get the +40% accuracy that almost every Axis squad gets.

In fact, Pfussies are the living proof that both huge accuracy vet and weapon upgrades should not exist at the same time since their additional +20% accuracy was changed to faster capping speed a long time ago.

True that, holly balls having to check multiple threads for all the live patch notes, because apparently compiling it all into 1 thread is 2 hrd.

M-42 and DShK in same commander is pointless, they are both are kinda bad anti-infantry weapons and bad anti-light vehicle weapons, having both in same doctrine is reduntant. Not even going to point out that currently even maxim is better than DShK as suppession/AI damage weapon
....

M-42 is an extremely cost efficient weapon both as Anti-light and as AI.

Your info about Dhsk is also incorrect, it has better DPS than maxim at all ranges (up to x137% close).

Instead of giving UK a mortar, better give them an ability to use PIAT as a light AI mortar instead.

-> if commander is selectet and a PIAT is a slot-item of a british squad you get the option to select the HEAT or explosive shell like US-sherman can choose.

damage profile little bit weaker than US-fighting-position.

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- I am no fan of a new german AT unit for OKW with Schrecks. Instead give Panzerfüsiliere 2x Panzerbüchse 39. Remove the G43-upgrade. (you have Volks for that job).

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I would like to see a commander T34/85 for soviets. With smoke-shells (like Chromewell) and a def-bonus like commander Pnz IV. So you can push your normal T34/76.

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1. I would like to see, if Tiger Ace would be replaced by a King-Tiger. Same stats as OKW version, starts with Vet0. You get smoke by the commander. And full-price.

2. I would like to see a new commander with Tiger 1 + HEAT as commander ability like OKW has.

3. I would like to see, if Commander-Pnz-4 would be changed a little bit too:
- It spawns with Schürzen (as OKW Pnz4)
- change the animator to sherman explosive shots (only cosemetic) AND remove the animation, that commander goes into the vehicle in combat.
- Instead of Vet2 extra HP (because it starts with the Schürzen) it gets larger aura. Maybe make the current aura smaller, so the Vet2-bonus isn't so dominant.


EDIT: And I would like to see, if hull-down vehicles get a range indicator. Also StuG should get the reload-buff in hull-down.

-> also, remove the MG-Schild animator, if the MG isn't upgraded. It Looks stupid.

Almost entirely wrong or irrelevant. DP penals (not vickers) are roughly equivalent to double bren sections, sure. Vickers penals destroy both (again, assuming all squads vetted).

Besides the point, but if you're retreating squads at 2-3 models, there might be a l2p issue somewhere.

How is it irrelevant when it was entire point of my post
2XDP Penals are no more OP than sections or rifles with weapons upgrades, hence if DP's were dropped to them by truck or airdrop it wont magically make them any more powerful than UKF/USF mainlines with their weapons.

The point is that someone in this thread started claiming DP's are somehow broken when dropped to infantry when they are worst LMG in game.

Also M3 Vickers still having old Bren values might explain why people think droppable weapons are OP on Penals in first place.

M-42 is an extremely cost efficient weapon both as Anti-light and as AI.

Your info about Dhsk is also incorrect, it has better DPS than maxim at all ranges (up to x137% close).

You are right about m42, it is a very good cost efficient weapon for both AI as AT.
But Dhsk do not have more dps, at least does not win engagements better than maxim, I ran some tests with Dshkas vs Maxim mid range and longe range, in green cover and yellow cover (i did not that in red cover) and both times Maxims won vs dshkas with still 3 models left. I did it vs grens too and maxim killed the gren unit 23 seconds earlier than dshkas.

The point is that someone in this thread started claiming DP's are somehow broken when dropped to infantry when they are worst LMG in game.

Also M3 Vickers still having old Bren values might explain why people think droppable weapons are OP on Penals in first place.

Soviets are designed NOT to have such upgrades. That is why penals are so strong, because they have to compensate the lack. Sometimes you can pick a weapon, because it got droped, but that is only a gimmick. To overcome this design is not a different play-stile, it is simply a bad design, I would also say bug-using. As stupid as US vehicle-crews, the decrew should be removed by an auto-repair function too.



Edit: And PLEASE overwork the hull-down function for Ostheer. There is still the bug of permanent hull-down animator.

How is it irrelevant when it was entire point of my post
2XDP Penals are no more OP than sections or rifles with weapons upgrades, hence if DP's were dropped to them by truck or airdrop it wont magically make them any more powerful than UKF/USF mainlines with their weapons.

The point is that someone in this thread started claiming DP's are somehow broken when dropped to infantry when they are worst LMG in game.

Also M3 Vickers still having old Bren values might explain why people think droppable weapons are OP on Penals in first place.

People arent necessarily claiming droppable DPs are broken, they're claiming DPs with 69% extra accuracy are broken. Also, people dont "think" droppable weapons are OP on penals, there is fairly widespread agreement about it.

I think there's fair reason to believe that brits are the strongest faction right now, mainly because of 5 man section with brens. You seem to understand that penals with DPs would be about as strong as 5 men bren sections, so you should see the issue with giving that level of infantry to a faction with 6 man squads and all tools available to it.