Conscript Utility

They used to be.

The role of each unit does not really matter as long there is room for both of them in an army composition and not having to spam on or the other.

Penals are intended to be optional and an alternative to maxims or elite infantry. cons are intended to be used in number all the time. It's not really comparable.

Penals are being treated like mainline infantry because cons arnt up to the task, same reason maxims used to be same reason snipers used to be.

And saying that all mainline infantry fill the same role is ignorant of design, it's like saying brass knuckles and bazooka fill the same role because they are both weapons. Penals and cons couldn't be more different if toy look at their stats and vet and are clearly intended to be used entirely differently.

Penals are intended to be optional and an alternative to maxims or elite infantry.
...

Then they are badly designed because they come too early and Soviet is the can field an exclusively "elite infatry replacements" army.

My point is rather simple buffing conscript to make them more attractive the Penals is the wrong way go about. Conscripts should be balanced with Grenadiers as the benchmark and designed so that that there is room for both units (conscript and penal) to coexist in composition of army each one bringing something worthwhile into the table.

(I refuse to get drug in a debate about "roles".)

If penals are "elite infantry" then so are Rifles, who have pretty much exactly the same dps curve, better vet and weapon upgrades and arrive even faster on field...

If you're losing to penals, rifles must completely roflstomp you and be like, most op inf in game, because they are not only elite infantry, but also T0.

Since you keep repeating like a broken record that cons should be balanced with grens on mind, that means you are also in full support of direct upgrade for mid and late game to mirror grens scalability through LMG.

If penals are "elite infantry" then so are Rifles, who have pretty much exactly the same dps curve, better vet and weapon upgrades and arrive even faster on field...

You have to weather Penal are "elite infatry" or not with thedarkarmadillo since he brought "elite infatry" and not. Even more so since I explained to you multiple times that I have no intention of debating semantic with you and help you derail another thread.

If you're losing to penals, rifles must completely roflstomp you and be like, most op inf in game, because they are not only elite infantry, but also T0.

I have to repeat myself again since you seem to have trouble understanding, the balance of the game is not a personal thing and has nothing to with what I can and can not do.

Since you keep repeating like a broken record that cons should be balanced with grens on mind, that means you are also in full support of direct upgrade for mid and late game to mirror grens scalability through LMG.

Actually your conclusion is completely wrong, Grenadier vs Conscripts is one of the best balanced match in the game and it has been so for years.

Now pls stick what you have already posted.

Have a nice day.

Actually your conclusion is completely wrong, Grenadier vs Conscripts is one of the best balanced match in the game and it has been so for years.

Now pls stick what you have already posted.

Nobody but you (and perhaps one or two equally blinkered forumites) thinks conscripts scale well agianst anything in the late game, not even grenadiers.

Nobody but you (and perhaps one or two equally blinkered forumites) thinks conscripts scale well agianst anything in the late game, not even grenadiers.

Now PLS try to actually read and understand what other are posting before replying and PLS stop putting words in other people mouths.

Unless you want to claim that:
Volks vs Conscript
volks vs Riflemen
Volks vs Tommies
Gren vs Riflemen
Gren vs Tommies
are better match ups, my point stands.

Conscripts vs grenadiers is and has been one of the best balanced match for year now.

Then they are badly designed because they come too early and Soviet is the can field an exclusively "elite infatry" army.

My point is rather simple buffing conscript to make them more attractive the Penals is the wrong way go about. Conscripts should be balanced with Grenadiers as the benchmark and designed so that that there is room for both units (conscript and penal) to coexist in composition of army each one bringing something worthwhile into the table.

(I refuse to get drug in a debate about "roles".)

I said penals are an alternative to elite infantry, not that they ARE elite infantry. I do feel that penals are over performing and have said as much, have discussed as much with you so don't put words in my mouth you know damn well I didn't say. I think penals are too strong regardless of Conscripts and I think Conscripts scale like a bag of rocks regardless of penals. I've said countless times I want any scaling for conscripts to come utility based or raw effeciency based. Something like a molotov isn't worth 20mu in the late game for example, knocking munitions off of it in T3 or 4 would buff cons, make them attractive late game and not effect the gren balance in the least.

Want to discuss roles or not there is no way to have penals and cons attractive without refining their roles. You said yourself yuu want one to be defensive and the other offensive--their vet already supports that distinction.

IMO as I have said, cons need some way to support the units around them so that no matter what unit you as a Soviet player decide to make the staple of your build conscripts have a place.
Again I'll propose that oorah provides a small aoe buff that scales with tech and or vet. If oorahing beside your maxim makes it able to actually suppress an enemy squad then you can get away with a con maxim build instead of maxim spam because anything less than 3 mgs won't stop anything more than 2 squads of infantry. If conscripts oorahing near penals make them shoot faster or survive a bit longer then a con/ penal build with balance each other and be more attractive than just penals..
You don't want them to overperform against grens, I don't want them to over perform on their own. Make them a support unit that can actually support and they won't out perform grens but synergies with their army much like the mg42 does for Ost.

I said penals are an alternative to elite infantry, not that they ARE elite infantry. I do feel that penals are over performing and have said as much, have discussed as much with you so don't put words in my mouth you know damn well I didn't say. ...

I am sorry if you feel that I have put words in your mouth, but if read my post I have used quotation marks in "elite infatry" to indicate that I am using the term in what ever manner you are using it. Since you feel that I replace it with "elite infatry replacements".

I also have to point out that it extremely difficult to have 3 different debates with 3 different people especially if they quote and respond to things that are directed to them.

It is still my opinion that one should first fix VGs and Penals and then check if any further changes are needed for Conscripts.

Lets have an overview of the very "Support" designed conscript:

- Molotov: Super slow, on firefights will lose 2-3 models by the time the molly animation ends, this definitely needs to be faster, why cant it be same speed as fire nades from volks?

- AT nades: The upgrade slows tech down when compared to free AT nade unlock from riflemen, free unlock faust from both german factions(I know you will bring up the "We need to tech up to unlock" but you were gonna do that anyways so it dont count)

- Merge: Yea they keep their target size penalty making elite units bleed even further, would it completely break the game if the original units retained their defense stats when merge reinforcing? a portable reinforcement effect on a unit is kinda cool, punishing reinforced units isnt so cool.

- 6 squad members means that explosives have more odds of hurting multiple targets, lowering their reinforce cost would help this with the added bonus of having merge improved.

- OOHRAAH: Kinda bleeds ammo for average effect, can we make them a little more resistant to suppression when this ability is on? would help with molotoving or running past an MG squad at specific points

- Trip wire flares: I have never used and never seen someone use this ability, to make a conscript have less combat ability in exchange of having this skill is a bit meh. look at auto flare commander for OKW, he gets a free flare when capturing a zone!

so we have a mainline infantry that has mediocre combat capability, and mediocre support abilities, if you really want it to be support oriented cant its support abilities be a little better?

they have a hard time scaling late game and if you decide to use 3-4 of them do you know how long base medic takes to heal all of them back to full? can we buff base medics to 3-4 instead of only 2? or faster healing? for a faction that is supposed to win with numbers it seems like they are not very well equipped to doing so.

Lets have an overview of the very "Support" designed conscript:

- Molotov: Super slow, on firefights will lose 2-3 models by the time the molly animation ends, this definitely needs to be faster, why cant it be same speed as fire nades from volks?

I dont think any squad has the requisite 80-120 DPS to drop 2-3 conscript models by the time the animation ends, doubly so when said squad has to dodge said animation.

And it is cheaper than the volks one.

- 6 squad members means that explosives have more odds of hurting multiple targets, lowering their reinforce cost would help this with the added bonus of having merge improved.

Having a squad with more members that's less likely to be wiped by explosives? Tough life.

I dont think any squad has the requisite 80-120 DPS to drop 2-3 conscript models by the time the animation ends, doubly so when said squad has to dodge said animation.

And it is cheaper than the volks one.

Having a squad with more members that's less likely to be wiped by explosives? Tough life.

Volks dont tech specificly for it. Sprint is often used in combination with molly or at nade because of their short range. Taking that into acount the molly is imo not cheaper

A full health squad can drop 2 models for a single molly easyely. When already damaged it can be 3 or more.

A larger squad is less likely to wiped by explosives indeed. But a smaller squad has an easier time avoiding the blast of say grenades.

If penals are "elite infantry" then so are Rifles, who have pretty much exactly the same dps curve, better vet and weapon upgrades and arrive even faster on field...

If you're losing to penals, rifles must completely roflstomp you and be like, most op inf in game, because they are not only elite infantry, but also T0.

Since you keep repeating like a broken record that cons should be balanced with grens on mind, that means you are also in full support of direct upgrade for mid and late game to mirror grens scalability through LMG.

Elite Infantry is specialized in doing one thing well.
Back then, Penals were a breakthrough anti-infantry infantry (lol), they had flamethrowers and satchels ti do to the hard work of penetrate the line destroying bunkers and eliminating garrisons. PZgrens are a specialized infantry as well, starts as a anti-infantry that can change to an anti-tank. Obers anti infantry and so on. USF and OKW don't have elite infantry, so its normal to both rifleman and tommys fill both roles.
The problem is now they changed penals role, now they are more appeal to be really the main infantry. They have both versatility and specialization. So there is no need for conscripts versatility.

Elite Infantry is specialized in doing one thing well.

So.... guards are not elite infantry then? Because they are as far from being a specialist as can get.

Back then, Penals were a breakthrough anti-infantry infantry (lol), they had flamethrowers and satchels ti do to the hard work of penetrate the line destroying bunkers and eliminating garrisons. PZgrens are a specialized infantry as well, starts as a anti-infantry that can change to an anti-tank. Obers anti infantry and so on. USF and OKW don't have elite infantry, so its normal to both rifleman and tommys fill both roles.
The problem is now they changed penals role, now they are more appeal to be really the main infantry. They have both versatility and specialization. So there is no need for conscripts versatility.

You mean... non doctrinal elite infantry?
Because that's exactly what overs are.
And if we take into account doctrines, there are paras, rangers, commandos.

Conscripts do NOT have versatility, that's the point, if you want to have them even remotely usable, you NEED to commit to a doctrine and if you do so, you might as well pick guards or shocks instead.

Cons have no versatility, no specialization, no scalability and no point.

You'll nerf penals and we're instantly back to maxim spam, regardless how bad maxim now is, because cons are even worse.

So.... guards are not elite infantry then? Because they are as far from being a specialist as can get.


You mean... non doctrinal elite infantry?
Because that's exactly what overs are.
And if we take into account doctrines, there are paras, rangers, commandos.

Conscripts do NOT have versatility, that's the point, if you want to have them even remotely usable, you NEED to commit to a doctrine and if you do so, you might as well pick guards or shocks instead.

Cons have no versatility, no specialization, no scalability and no point.

You'll nerf penals and we're instantly back to maxim spam, regardless how bad maxim now is, because cons are even worse.

I am not saying that Conscripts are good, IMO I think they are still bad, I am just saying that Penals now are better in every way and there is no need for conscripts. Even if you buff conscripts, It will be very hard to overcome Penals. I'm not saying nerf penals, but give them a deficit, like back then when building only penals leave you very exposed to light vehicles.
And by the way guards are doctrinal, so I'm not into it right now.

I am not saying that Conscripts are good, IMO I think they are still bad, I am just saying that Penals now are better in every way and there is no need for conscripts. Even if you buff conscripts, It will be very hard to overcome Penals. I'm not saying nerf penals, but give them a deficit, like back then when building only penals leave you very exposed to light vehicles.
And by the way guards are doctrinal, so I'm not into it right now.

If you build only penals you are vulnerable to all vehicles

If you upgrade them all to AT packages you become vulnerable to enemy infantry

If you build only penals you are vulnerable to all vehicles

If you upgrade them all to AT packages you become vulnerable to enemy infantry

Only a sith deals in absolutes

If you build only penals you are vulnerable to all vehicles

If you upgrade them all to AT packages you become vulnerable to enemy infantry

That is one why to look at it, another would be:
If you opponent spam infantries you can beat him with the high DPS Penal have.

If you opponent rushes vehicles instead, you can easily upgrade to AT and contain his light vehicles.

If you opponent than decides to invest in infatry, you can have a T-70 that can wreck his infatry.

It amazing how some people present that option to upgrade with PTRS as drawback. It remind me of the myth with option for HE Sherman, which was somehow presented as a bad thing.

Yea there's not way to frame the ability to get AT is a disadvantage. That there is the problem imo with penals, such a strong AI advantage that can transfer into a strong defensive AT option IF needed is insanely powerful, especially when it doesn't gut their AI like it does for panzergrens (yes it lowers it but it doesn't remove it, which is valid given the power of Shreks but it's a bad transition for a 6 man squad) Picking AT or AI specializations imo is the way to go. 6 guards rifles upgrading into svts or Ptrs would be reasonable and maintain obvious counterplay that doesn't set itself up to be countered.

Most people here can agree that conscripts are not very good, do we know if the patch making people know about this thread?

Played Russians for a very long time, played all of the factions.

Conscripts took a big hit when their guns lost the DPS, SVT's on Penals are just incredibly strong. They have great AI, scale well late game, have lethal abilities and scare germans.

Conscripts scare nobody, they cost a lot of fuel to make "versatile" and honestly just skip it, Penal spam into T70s or Su76 w/ Shocks or Guards.

I think you could give them a DP LMG once Tier 3 or 4 unlocks and make it a 60-90 munitions unlock. Cons actually have decent accuracy but their rifles aren't that great. This would make them more versatile, and hard to push off in green cover. Currently they can stick in green cover, but will just end up losing to anything else late game. This would make them sticky, and you wouldn't want to duke it out w/ a conscript.

DP's already exist, and Guardsman already get them but I'm not sure how in depth changes can even be made at this point. But I don't see any other weapon you could give them? Maybe upgrade them all to SVT's? But they absolutely just need a weapon upgrade. With their current stat line, stealing any LMG cons perform decently.

my two cents, lots of hours on soviets and I only go T1 as I want to win.