Conscript Utility

1. Really sad that you try to portay okw as being heavely doctrine dependent. There is more then volks or fussies. You purposely leave out sturms and the kubel, a feul free vehicle. That you only spam volks is on you.

I have never said that, thats your own opinion about OKM, not mine. I just pointed out how doctrinally SU gives more variety.

2. And your point is? All off them are good enough.

3. Again you forget sturms for okw, but then you do count the su sniper. Why are you even posting?
Sov have so much callin inf and teams because all off their non doc inf and wpn teams except penals are not as effective as other factions counterparts are. Despite being a little more durable.

Yeah lets spam sturmpios... looses at min5 and ragequits. I am not even taking consideration of bad plays, so i excluse as A VIABLE OPTION to use NON COMBATANT troops as a FRONTLINE unit. But if you do, fine! Gl winning games tho.

4. Cons have a lot off utility indeed but half is in doctrines and thus exclude eachother. Their scaling also is doctrinal depended. Volks dont need any doctrine for any off that and do more then cons. With cons you pay for what you cant get, about a third off that utility is not available at the same time. And they also pay more for basic utility.

For 10 mp more volks wreck cons and its fine. For 50 mp more plus tech structure and you are suprised penals beat volks?

If you pick a doctrine that do not upgrades cons, it means you do not rely on them after min 5. Its simple mafs. But Again volks vs cons is not only a broken comparison, a everlasting repeated one, a one i said im ignoring until cons get fixed (everyone here agrees cons need a buff) and finally as long as penals can (and they do) beat volks the comparison is valid, as i stated the limits of my comparison and i did not mention nothing about cost efficiency, just how that argument backfires.

If penals beating volks is valid can I complain that panzer grens beat cons? Since obviously per unit costs and teching costs don't matter and the only thing that matters is what obscure reasoning you have for penals to be compared to volks but not cons,despite volks and cons being more similar than literally any other combination of infantry in the game...

I have never said that, thats your own opinion about OKM, not mine. I just pointed out how doctrinally SU gives more variety.

Yeah lets spam sturmpios... looses at min5 and ragequits. I am not even taking consideration of bad plays, so i excluse as A VIABLE OPTION to use NON COMBATANT troops as a FRONTLINE unit. But if you do, fine! Gl winning games tho.

If you pick a doctrine that do not upgrades cons, it means you do not rely on them after min 5. Its simple mafs. But Again volks vs cons is not only a broken comparison, a everlasting repeated one, a one i said im ignoring until cons get fixed (everyone here agrees cons need a buff) and finally as long as penals can (and they do) beat volks the comparison is valid, as i stated the limits of my comparison and i did not mention nothing about cost efficiency, just how that argument backfires.

Where in my sentence does it say that i think okw is doctrine depended?

Where did i say spam sturms instead of volks? You simply ignore them. Sturms are non combat troops? 2x sturm opening can be very hard for the enemy to deal with. You will disrupt him so much while you gain map control with volks or kubel.
Try doing that with 2x of other factions engineer units.

Cons power is supposed to be their utility. Wich falls off almost completley after x minutes. Buff that for the late game. Or make them more cost efficient. Right now they are not cost efficient. Nor are they the best at utility. Only when the right doctrine is chosen they are.
A unit depending so much on doctrines and side tech and requiering massive micro to get the most out off while having simaler cost is just wrong.

I have never said that, thats your own opinion about OKM, not mine. I just pointed out how doctrinally SU gives more variety.

Variety is not the same as useful variety. Partisans and Assault Guards are a waste of manpower. Thank christ we don't still have irregulars.

Yeah lets spam sturmpios... looses at min5 and ragequits. I am not even taking consideration of bad plays, so i excluse as A VIABLE OPTION to use NON COMBATANT troops as a FRONTLINE unit. But if you do, fine! Gl winning games tho.

If you think Sturmpios are bad at combat there's no helping you. Used well they will trash anything short of commandos. It's almost like, gasp, they're a useful unit that forms part of a wide and varied roster.

If you pick a doctrine that do not upgrades cons, it means you do not rely on them after min 5. Its simple mafs. But Again volks vs cons is not only a broken comparison, a everlasting repeated one, a one i said im ignoring until cons get fixed (everyone here agrees cons need a buff) and finally as long as penals can (and they do) beat volks the comparison is valid, as i stated the limits of my comparison and i did not mention nothing about cost efficiency, just how that argument backfires.

If penals beating volks is valid can I complain that panzer grens beat cons? Since obviously per unit costs and teching costs don't matter and the only thing that matters is what obscure reasoning you have for penals to be compared to volks but not cons,despite volks and cons being more similar than literally any other combination of infantry in the game...

Basically this. Please stop trying to somehow 'discredit' the cons/volks comparison just because you don't like it and it shows how obviously busted conscripts are as a choice.

250mp T0 starting unit for OKW = Full Game usefulness, Doctrinal Upgrade available
240mp T0 starting unit for SOV = Short term poor, Long term trash, doctrine just to make them sort of useful at all

Conscripts need to be a long term mainline infantry if they are going to have any use. We've been hearing 'oh but utility' for six years and in those six years conscripts have never been a useful long term investment as anything besides merge fodder.

...
Basically this. Please stop trying to somehow 'discredit' the cons/volks comparison just because you don't like it and it shows how obviously busted conscripts are as a choice.

250mp T0 starting unit for OKW = Full Game usefulness, Doctrinal Upgrade available
240mp T0 starting unit for SOV = Short term poor, Long term trash, doctrine just to make them sort of useful at all

Conscripts need to be a long term mainline infantry if they are going to have any use. We've been hearing 'oh but utility' for six years and in those six years conscripts have never been a useful long term investment as anything besides merge fodder.

Since the problem is the conscript/volks relationship it is the volks who need adjustment or else you break the conscript/grenadier. Then one would also have to fix the new Penal/volks relationship.

Actually that is incorrect, conscript spam was viable tactic for years.

Reduce cons cost. Next patch cons get nerfed bcos they become too cost effective. Then cons get cost reduction again. Repeat loop until cost reaches 0 or cons get removed from the actual game.

I think the problem is not the cost-effectiveness of cons, but the HIGH cost effectiveness of Volks that no one can beat.
Volks are 250 mp that can beat cons in almost every engagement possible and still having faust and grenades without upgrades (flame nade that have more range and fire fast than molotovs), build sandbags and having weapons upgrades. This is insane.
Actually cons vs Ostheers are not bad, but vs OKW they are useful just to feed Volks veterancy.

Since the problem is the conscript/volks relationship it is the volks who need adjustment or else you break the conscript/grenadier. Then one would also have to fix the new Penal/volks relationship.

Actually that is incorrect, conscript spam was viable tactic for years.

Regardless of volks cons need something late game. Even ostroppen now have something to keep them attractive late game cons have nothing but vet which is a moot point of your are building them late game.

Cons spam hasn't been viable for years outside with an at the time over performing ppsh upgrade at which point, a commander where at least 20% of its abilities are focused on making cons better make cons see more use...

Cons are good with certain doctrines but they should require a doctrine to be able to make use of your mainline infantry. There's no other unit in the game that is dead weight unless you pick a commander.

Regardless of volks cons need something late game. Even ostroppen now have something to keep them attractive late game cons have nothing but vet which is a moot point of your are building them late game.

Cons spam hasn't been viable for years outside with an at the time over performing ppsh upgrade at which point, a commander where at least 20% of its abilities are focused on making cons better make cons see more use...

Cons are good with certain doctrines but they should require a doctrine to be able to make use of your mainline infantry. There's no other unit in the game that is dead weight unless you pick a commander.

Actually no.

They need a clear role within the Soviet army.
Currently the share the same role with Penal while Penal being OP, a simple buff will not actually work.

(Osttruppen don't actually work late game the LMG upgrade is an average solution at best)

Actually no.

They need a clear role within the Soviet army.
Currently the share the same role with Penal while Penal being OP, a simple buff will not actually work.

First of all, cons and penals do NOT share role, because cons are not long range squad that sacrifices durability for firepower and numerical superiority for ability to fend off any other single squad 1v1 in early game.

Second of all, if penals are op to you, despite the fact they arrive latest on field of all mainlines and have highest cost of all mainlines, meaning they will always be outnumbered unless opponent under produces own infantry, while having no AI weapon upgrade contrary to all other mainlines, when I'd love to know how batshit insanely op volks are to you as they have all the perks while sacrificing nothing for them.

I do however agree they need a clear role, because at the moment, they have none.
Cutting cost to 220 or even 210 would at least give them role similar to osttruppen and con spam would still not work, because no weapon upgrades late game.

Another approach is to keep 240 cost and introduce T3/T4 upgrade that would give them literally anything, cheaper reinforcement, better durability, better accuracy, literally anything to make them relevant in any way, because no one needs a squad you don't even want to rebuild when lost.

(Osttruppen don't actually work late game the LMG upgrade is an average solution at best)

Average solution is better then no solution at all, wouldn't you agree?

First of all, cons and penals do NOT share role, because cons are not long range squad that sacrifices durability for firepower and numerical superiority for ability to fend off any other single squad 1v1 in early game.

There is a difference between the role of a unit and the tools to achieve it.

Penal are mainline infantry.
Conscript are mainline infantry. They have the same role.

Second of all, if penals are op to you, despite the fact they arrive latest on field of all mainlines and have highest cost of all mainlines, meaning they will always be outnumbered unless opponent under produces own infantry, while having no AI weapon upgrade contrary to all other mainlines, when I'd love to know how batshit insanely op volks are to you as they have all the perks while sacrificing nothing for them.

Penal are one of the strongest infatry for their time frame. They simply too powerful for their time frame.

Shouldn't Conscripts be the mainline while penals the elite infantry, like Grens/PzGrens or Volks/Obers?
At least is what the description says.
I can't imagine a bunch of criminals being the mainline infantry of any army.

Shouldn't Conscripts be the mainline while penals the elite infantry, like Grens/PzGrens or Volks/Obers?
At least is what the description says.
I can't imagine a bunch of criminals being the mainline infantry of any army.

They used to be.

The role of each unit does not really matter as long there is room for both of them in an army composition and not having to spam on or the other.

There is a difference between the role of a unit and the tools to achieve it.

Penal are mainline infantry.
Conscript are mainline infantry. They have the same role.

.........
You've got that as wrong as its humanely possible.
Mainline infantries do NOT have all the same role.

The only common thing about mainline infantries across the factions is, they are most numerous unit in early game, aka backbone of the army.

Every single of them has a different tools and on field application and the only common thing between them is, they are all primarily meant to fight infantry. The way they do it is the role.

By your logic, grens and ass grens have the same role.

Penal are one of the strongest infatry for their time frame. They simply too powerful for their time frame.

Hence they are most expensive infantry for their time frame, arrive latest of all for their time frame and will always be outnumbered because of their cost.

You will always outnumber penals early game, don't 1v1 them when you always can 2v1 them, especially in very early game.

.........
You've got that as wrong as its humanely possible.
Mainline infantries do NOT have all the same role.

You are going personal again and semantics, I will simply not follow down that road and help you to derail another thread.

The role is "mainline infatry" so all mainline infatry have the same role...

You are going personal again and semantics, I will simply not follow down that road and help you to derail another thread.

The role is "mainline infatry" so all mainline infatry have the same role...

No, their DESIGNATION is mainline infantry.
The tools they use are what defines their role.

Their roles are:

Penals: all range AI specialist with AT stop gap upgrade
Grens: long range AI generalist inf(support and deterrent vs vehicles through faust)
Rifles: all range adaptable generalist inf(both AI and AT effective upgrade)
Tommies: long range adaptable generalist inf(both AI and AT effective upgrade)
Vols: all range AI generalist inf(support and deterrent vs vehicles through faust)
Cons: mid to close range vet piniata and utility meme, usable with and only with ppsh doctrine

You can't just throw multiple different units with different use into a single bag and call them the same.

Still forces you to completely ignore then in an okw matchup because stgs come a whole hell of a lot sooner than slightly better bolt action rifles. It's not just that cons don't scale late game, but that they are underwhelming all game. They don't really have a role in the Soviet roster.

Cons being a possible choice in 1 of 2 matchups, and also being a viable choice in team games is better than them not being a choice at all. Perhaps thats the intricacy of having 2 mainlines in an army, with one of them not always being the better choice over the other.

With the upgrade i proposed, the Con/Strelki would have ~85% firepower of the Penals (Vet 0 ofc.), with whatever "magical utility" base cons have, and stil keeping their conscript pricetag (240/20). Seems like a decent role to fill in.
Not every unit needs to be good in every matchup.

I would like to take a moment to appreciate that after all that you kept a sense of humor about this otherwise behemoth of a thread. Kudos to you sir.

Thanks! I try my best

If we want to consider cons as mainline, they have to act like mainline, otherwise we might as well forget about them, drop their price to 200, adjust stats accordingly and consider them fodder, not mainline.

Once more,your are going semantics, I will simply not follow down that road and help you to derail another thread.

If that's what you truly believe and it floats your boat, then so be it.

Have a nice day.

I think relic just straight up goofed putting penals as a stock infantry unit. It should have been a commander call-in and instead, guards should have been mainline from tier3/4 (maybe tier-3 with the DP unlock from tier-4).

As a commander call-in, penals could be made into an interesting unit with some real flavor and mechanics to back it up instead of what they are now.

This would also mean that conscripts no longer have direct competition for their role and so could gain a buff (or stock tech option/upgrade) without unbalancing things.

Oh well.

(also, lol @ semantics)