OKW overhaul discussion

If you keep copying the same comment after it's been moderated, i don't think you get the clue right?
Change your comment style to be constructive/civil.

Invis a couple of comments and the ones quoting it.

What?


lol i just give them some "fact"

Even they cant retorted my "fact"

flamming? trolling? that whining boy is trolling and flamming now


constructive? how can I constructive discussion with "biased perspect"?

snip

I invis it at first, but i'm gonna give you an example.


You can have a biased view, everyone here with more or less intensity has one. You don't need to resort to extensive exaggeration to make your point come across.

Just check how your 2nd comment hasn't been invised while your previous one has, while you attempted to send the same message.
Because at least you tried to put some fundaments to your POV.

I have updated the opening post and added some of the feedback.
Gave an alternative for the SpecOps flares and expanded Raketten changes.


I wonder if putting the Ostwind and the Flammpanzer Hetzer into the stock T4 will make them viable again, as they would arrive a bit sooner. Right now they see almost no use because they need the full tier 4 structure up and at that point you're better up saving a bit more for a Panzer IV.

I think that would be a pretty good change, although the new timing would have to be tested. It would hopefully make these vehicles popular again while maintaining a fair timing. I've put it into the OP. See below. Sadly this wouldn't work with Lago's alternative tech restructure.

1.1; Tier 4 - Schwerer Panzer Headquarters tech split
I would like to see T4 split up into two techs, so Obersoldaten can hit the field earlier than they currently do. Doctrinal 'T3' units are now also available at stock T4 so they can become viable again. All other units including the tech structure AA gun are locked behind side tech.

• T4 stock headquarters now costs ~100MP and 50FU to construct. AA gun is disabled.

• A Stock T4 can produce Obersoldaten (no LMG upgrade).

• A Stock T4 can now also produce the doctrinal Flammpanzer Hetzer and the Ostwind.

• Upgrade Activate Schwerer Panzer Headquarters now available for 100MP and 70FU. Unlocks: Obers LMG upgrade; tier structure flak gun enabled; Jagdpanzer IV, Panzer IV, Panther.

• King Tiger now requires all trucks set up and the Activate Schwerer Panzer Headquarters upgrade activated.

If like to see a bit more manpower behind fully teching t4 due to the now added flexibility of being able to partially tech and bring out Obers. Maybe an extra 50 or so? It just seems really cheap to me idk.

Editr maybe for the first bit of the upgrade, hell or both. Obers locked by so little manpower just feels wrong.

Well remember, the SwS truck also still costs 100MP and the Obers wouldn't have their LMG (possibly), so that's 200MP to unlock stock Obers. Anyway I have just halfed the costs for the split but they could also be made 150MP 50FU / 50MP 70FU or whatever.

Well remember, the SwS truck also still costs 100MP and the Obers wouldn't have their LMG (possibly), so that's 200MP to unlock stock Obers. Anyway I have just halfed the costs for the split but they could also be made 150MP 50FU / 50MP 70FU or whatever.

I did forget about the sws, perhaps you are right. I do welcome Obers hitting sooner but obviously don't want them hitting too cheaply is all

Seems alright but obers were never a balance problem... giving the kt brummbar firepower may make it OP however... reducing its fuel cost or giving it better traverse might be a better option

I want it to have the Brummbar's AOE profile, not the same power. It should do less total damage than the Brummbar for obvious reasons, but have the same gun AOE profile of having relatively low scatter while doing a lot of health damage over a spread out area rather than wiping all the models.

The current scatter is horrible. I do not want to pay for the most expensive tank in the game to have it miss 3 out of 4 shots on enemy infantry while it's getting hopelessly pummeled by Allied 60 range TDs. It's no fun for both the player and the enemy that the KT either hits nothing or wipes half a squad. It should do consistant and reliable (health) damage to infantry to give both parties a more predictable experience.

For what it's worth, I think all other heavy tanks (IS-2 and Tiger) should receive the same AOE profile.

At this point one could think of reworking Kubelwagen to be the Mechanized set up starting unit and give it some dps.

OKW has a similar problem to old USF: it's stuck in T0 for a very long time, forcing it to spam out a load of infantry because it has no other option.

The USF overhaul solved this by lowering the initial teching costs to give USF access to a greater variety of manpower based units sooner, while adding sidetechs to preserve vehicle timings.

So here's what I've got:

SwS Supply Truck

• Convert To Battlegroup Headquarters is now free.
  
• Convert To Mechanized Headquarters is now free.
  
• Convert To Schwerer Panzer Headquarters is now free, and does not require another truck set up. The flak gun starts disabled.

Battlegroup Headquarters

• New upgrade: Activate Battlegroup Headquarters (200 MP, 25 FU).
  
  • Unlocks the IR Halftrack and Flak Halftrack.
• The medics upgrade is now a prerequiste to reinforce from the Battlegroup Headquarters.
  

Mechanized Headquarters

• New upgrade: Activate Mechanized Headquarters (200 MP, 45 FU).
  
  • Unlocks the Panzer II Luchs and Puma.

Schwerer Panzer Headquarters

• New upgrade: Activate Schwerer Panzer Headquarters (200 MP, 120 FU, requires one activated headquarters.)
  
  • Unlocks the Panzer IV, Jagdpanzer IV and Panther.
  • Enables the flak gun.

King Tiger

• Requires three activated Headquarters.

Obersoldaten

• MG34 upgrade requires Activate Schwerer Panzer Headquarters.

It's a lot of text, but in practice it's very simple: the trucks only cost the 100 MP 15 FU the truck itself costs to set up, but all they can do is build their manpower units. They've then got a USF-style sidetech to unlock the vehicles.

This means OKW can potentially build a tech unit as their third squad. They even have the option of going early Obersoldaten (minus LMG34s) if they're willing to spend 100 MP 15 FU to unlock just them and have an unarmed Schwerer Panzer Headquarters on the field for a long time.

A secondary benefit is Mechanized OKW builds can now get medics for 250 MP 30 FU, rather than the 450 MP 40 FU it currently costs them, and Battlegroup builds have much cheaper access to the Walking Stuka. Hypothetically, you could rush a Stuka 45 FU faster now too, but you'd have nothing but Raketenwerfers and Volksgrenadiers to protect it.

This is the best option IMHO, but the T4 could be split into half.

1) Start Schwerer Panzer Operation (100 mp 60 fuel or 150 mp 80 fuel or any quantity seems better in game tests).
Unlocks Obers and Jagdpanzer IV as basic counters

2) Heavy Equipment Requisition (remaining) Unlocks Panther, Machine guns, unlocks the Flak upgrade

I want it to have the Brummbar's AOE profile, not the same power. It should do less total damage than the Brummbar for obvious reasons, but have the same gun AOE profile of having relatively low scatter while doing a lot of health damage over a spread out area rather than wiping all the models.

The current scatter is horrible. I do not want to pay for the most expensive tank in the game to have it miss 3 out of 4 shots on enemy infantry while it's getting hopelessly pummeled by Allied 60 range TDs. It's no fun for both the player and the enemy that the KT either hits nothing or wipes half a squad. It should do consistant and reliable (health) damage to infantry to give both parties a more predictable experience.

For what it's worth, I think all other heavy tanks (IS-2 and Tiger) should receive the same AOE profile.

Ahhh understood... but retain the overall damage but prevent it from instawiping... thats understandable.. and yes should be done to both the kt and IS2... the tiger on the other hand has more at potential than the slow firing is2 and doesnt seem underpowered afaik... i think only the kt and the is2 are in need of a rework

HQ Flaks would be better reworked like the Final HQ upgrade, just like medics and repair for the other 2.

A muni cost but you can give direct orders to it and it automatically counters air istead of being a timed ability.

That could put more emphasis on the usage of FHQ that was the intial intention with okw design.

About volks STG44.
Besides adding a side tech for it, how about unlocking only 1 stg for 30mu with T2 and another stg require T3 or T4

About volks STG44.
Besides adding a side tech for it, how about unlocking only 1 stg for 30mu with T2 and another stg require T3 or T4

St44 are simply badly designed and should be redesigned or replaced with mp40. The weapon is too good at all ranges and available in cheap easily accessed infantry.

OKW has 7 different types of infantry filling literally all the possible roles multiple times.

Stripping STGs from volks all together and just locking weapon upgrades for them behind doctrines would be sufficient change that would do 4 things at once:
- discourage mindless volkspam and volkblobs
- encourage ose of multiple other infantries
- leave them with enough muni to use off maps more reliably
- allow cons to actually compete if relic remains with hard-on for not giving them anything late game

OKW has 7 different types of infantry filling literally all the possible roles multiple times.

Stripping STGs from volks all together and just locking weapon upgrades for them behind doctrines would be sufficient change that would do 4 things at once:
- discourage mindless volkspam and volkblobs
- encourage ose of multiple other infantries
- leave them with enough muni to use off maps more reliably
- allow cons to actually compete if relic remains with hard-on for not giving them anything late game

I think that is a bad idea, and one of the biggest proposed nerf to OKW I have ever seen without seeing anything that can compensate for it.

- Discourages mindless volkspam and volksblobs

It is a main line infantry. It will be used more so that others for obvious reasons. If volks spam is an issue then double BAR rifles or double bren Inf Section is also an issue.

Don't see you mentioning that though. See below for why "volks spam" is a thing as well.

- Encourage use of multiple other infantry types

Then make the other infantry types more accessible/ useful. FSJ at 3 CP, Obers arriving when tanks arrive does not make "using other types of infantry" easy. 2 CP Panzerfusiliers are nice, but locked to literally ONE doctrine. Same same with FSJs in ONE doctrine.

What if I dont want to use a Jagdtiger? Then I am stuck with Volksgren carrying my sorry ass all the way til at least CP3, or if I had a doctrine with no call-ins, until Obers.

The only two thing that arrives at 1 CP is JLIs which are overpowered as hell (with nerf coming in), and sturm officer which is limited to one, and does not even vet.

- Leave them with enough muni to use off map

This is one of the most retarded "filler" reason I have ever seen.

I can also leave Allies with enough muni to use off maps by removing BAR/ Zooks/ Bren/ PIAT pick ups.

You either dump your muni into weapons (Stgs, LMGs, BARs, zooks, Piats, pintle MGs), use abilities (Fausts, nades), use off maps or lay mines.

Sector arty, Sector assault, Zeroing arty, Rocket Barrage, airborne assault are all 200 muni off maps with very specific application/ uses. The next cheaper one is Salvage operation's 105mm barrage at 180 muni.

Valiant assault is the cheapest, and probably the most criminally underused ability. Not sure if it counts under your definition of off map.

In comparison the Ost Light artillery barrage, or sov Incendiary barrage is cheaper, and usable in many more situations, thus it is obvious why you won't see as much OKW off maps.

If I see a pak that can threaten my tanks as Ost or Sov, I drop incend or light artillery barrage on it to kill it/ make it move. As OKW though, I am not calling in sector arty to make a single pak go away.

Finally, OKW's commanders seem to like the "One commander, one off map" set up. If the commander is shit, then that off map will never be seen because no one would use it.

- Allows cons to compete

Probably the only argument I kinda agree with, but then again, PPSH cons that can repair your T-34-85/ KV-1 is also a thing.

There are also enough doctrines with PPSH cons package going around that makes it a non-issue if you want to go all-in on Conscripts. Some of which comes with T-34-85s (Advanced War), or KV-1s (cons support, and a bunch of others).

They also have penals easily accessible, and if penals or cons arent your thing, there are also guards and shocks at TWO CP generously sprinkled into almost every doctrine at 2 CP.

Of the 20 odd commanders, 7 does not have shocks, guards, or PPSH packages.

- Community Defence (lol)
- Partisans (2 unique call-ins and not really used?)
- NKVD (Commissar, tank deleting barrage)
- Tank Hunter (PTRS upgrades and stealth gives cons another use)
- Lend Lease
- Industry (KV-2 and KV-8)
- Armored Assault (T-34-85 and IS-2)

Taking away the meme community defence and partisan commanders, you have 5 doctrines which does not give you guards, shocks, or PPSH upgrades.

Tank Hunter gives your cons PTRS upgrade and turns them into a dedicated AT squad, with a different purpose in mind so you are supposed to use penals to cover them. So that leaves 4 doctrines where your cons have no utility, and no call-in infantry (shocks/ guards) to back them up.

I will not count the Lend Lease M5 assault group's token guards squad.

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7 infantry to fill all roles if they are accessible ))))

2 infantry type that can be main line - Volks/ Pfus
2 Elite infantry type that kills well, but bleeds heavily - Obers/ Falls
1 overpowered/ need nerf infantry - JLI
1 "officer" - Sturm Officer
1 Engineer/ Anti-Tank/ Psuedo-Assault/ Flamer infantry - Sturmpioneer

The St44 can be removed or replaced by the Mp40 in the same patch they nerf the Penal and removed hit the ground from ppsh conscripts.

The St44 can be removed or replaced by the Mp40 in the same patch they nerf the Penal and removed hit the ground from ppsh conscripts.

MP-40 already comes with firestorm doc though.

MP-40 already comes with firestorm doc though.

And it a far better design upgrade. It can simply be replaced with WP shell for puma or something else.

Another good addition would be some dedicated anti-MG unit or ability

Nowadays, The volks blob just walks over Maxims and Vickers frontally, but if that gets fixed, all They have is a Leig, which is just a soft-counter and a Stuka- which either comes too late or makes your armor come too late and other stuff that is either doctrinal or also comes too late