This is exactly why I say they are clueless.
The idea for maxim was to be a support mg unit, while the MG42 was used defensively.
Now the mg42 can be used in any way you want, and the maxim is just a desperate attempt to suppress the blobs...
They keep trying to find a way to give tier 1 more use or to remove maxim spamming, but it just boils down to the same reasoning, soviets have nothing if you remove either, because of how their teching is changed over time and conscripts costing more than they should.
Rework Penals
29 Dec 2018, 15:53 PM
#41
Posts: 378
T34 85 needs to have slightly less AI. It's shells are basically on par with Sherman HE yet it does everything.
29 Dec 2018, 15:54 PM
#42
Posts: 1096
The topic of this thread is Penal, lets move away from conscripts and maxim. This unit could easily receive minor buffs if when penal power level is decrease Soviet prove to be weak.
Another issue with Penal are the very strong offensive vet bonuses their receive combined with their very strong base stats.
They are heavily related as you will be facing penals or maxims. With the current performance of maxims you are seeing higher levels of T1 play.
We can not talk about nerfing penals without looking to buff T2 (namely the maxim) and/or T0 with the conscripts.
These units don't exist in a vacuum, they are part of a larger composition and you have to take that into account.
29 Dec 2018, 16:01 PM
#43
Posts: 1289
Soviet are currently the one of the stronger factions in the game, if that is only a result of Penal, the faction is badly design and the meta will always remain T1.
The rest of the post are simply flawed theories which I will not even bother responding to.
Imo it is partly as a result from penals being strong.
Also because cons arent really viable in the long run, they mostly become ineffective without doctrines in the late game. The micro tax is already the highest imo to get their full potential.
The maxim is a strange mg. First mobile small arc low supression. Everthing just walked out of the arc in seconds. Supression buff made it to good. Now its an mg42 wannabe with a shitty vet ability.
Cons used to synergize with maxim better when it was highly mobile. Now cons struggle without that and the maxim is a wannabe defensive mg.
I think if penals are nerfed to 270mp of the past, wich not that much better then cons. the maxim should be mobile and agressive again. This way cons can fill the void together with the maxim.
29 Dec 2018, 16:46 PM
#44
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
They are heavily related as you will be facing penals or maxims. With the current performance of maxims you are seeing higher levels of T1 play.
No they not. Penal are simply too powerful for their time frame. They could easily become cheaper while having weapon upgrades costing munition. That would make allot better from design point of view.
We can not talk about nerfing penals without looking to buff T2 (namely the maxim) and/or T0 with the conscripts.
These units don't exist in a vacuum, they are part of a larger composition and you have to take that into account.
Read more carefully my post. I did say that maxim and conscript might need some minor buffs. That might prove not to even be necessary if one nerfs VG as I suggested. Even if one simply replace the ST44 upgrade with the Mp40 that might prove enough.
29 Dec 2018, 17:34 PM
#47
Posts: 5279
Buffing 1 unit to make it fit in with 4 overperforming units is what we call power creep. Buffing cons upsets the balance between cons to be combat viable vs volks upsets the balance between grens and runs the risk of making penals less cost effecient relatively. Penals are expensive but that doesn't make them balanced for their timing. Having penals as is and keeping cons crap is like adding Obers to okw t0 instead of STGs-sure it gives them firepower but upsets everything in that they thwomp all enemy infantry no contest.
Penals should certainly be strong, but not as strong out of the gate.
Soviet lack a proper munition sink but suffer from heavy manpower investment in EVERYTHING from teching to fielding not garbage infantry. Seems straightforward to me...
The biggest issue with penals is the seamless transition into countering their own counter (via ptrs upgrade) making the choice of pumping out powerful AI infantry a non issue.
AT and AI should be a split decision not a progression.
Penals should certainly be strong, but not as strong out of the gate.
Soviet lack a proper munition sink but suffer from heavy manpower investment in EVERYTHING from teching to fielding not garbage infantry. Seems straightforward to me...
The biggest issue with penals is the seamless transition into countering their own counter (via ptrs upgrade) making the choice of pumping out powerful AI infantry a non issue.
AT and AI should be a split decision not a progression.
#stalinwept
29 Dec 2018, 18:23 PM
#50
Posts: 2184 | Subs: 2
I repeat: the presence of two main infantry units at the start of the game is a poor faction design.
- rename current “conscripts” to “rifle squad” - improvement: 6 SVT-40 rifles, 1st level of veteranship - suppressive fire.
- Remove the current “penal troops” from T1 and rename them to “conscripts/militia” , put the new “conscripts/militia” into the ability: rapid conscript.
- rename current “conscripts” to “rifle squad” - improvement: 6 SVT-40 rifles, 1st level of veteranship - suppressive fire.
- Remove the current “penal troops” from T1 and rename them to “conscripts/militia” , put the new “conscripts/militia” into the ability: rapid conscript.
29 Dec 2018, 18:31 PM
#51
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
I repeat: the presence of two main infantry units at the start of the game is a poor faction design.
- rename current “conscripts” to “rifle squad” - improvement: 6 SVT-40 rifles, 1st level of veteranship - suppressive fire.
- Remove the current “penal troops” from T1 and rename them to “conscripts/militia” , put the new “conscripts/militia” into the ability: rapid conscript.
Not necessarily although the current implementation is problematic, one could still make it work by giving different roles to these infantries.
Penal could be cheap aggressive infantry with ourah and ppsh and conscript defensive infantry with hit the ground.
29 Dec 2018, 19:03 PM
#52
Posts: 573
Penals cant be reworked because they are only viable mainline infantry Sov has.
If you want people making less Penals you need to ask "balance" team to seriously buff maxim making T2 viable and give Conscripts non-doctrinal upgrades to scale them into late game, whether it's PTRS, DP or PPSh does not really matter the point is - Conscripts and T2 combo is joke and as long as it remains so prepare to face Penals every game (which is exactly how Sov faction played since forever)
If you want people making less Penals you need to ask "balance" team to seriously buff maxim making T2 viable and give Conscripts non-doctrinal upgrades to scale them into late game, whether it's PTRS, DP or PPSh does not really matter the point is - Conscripts and T2 combo is joke and as long as it remains so prepare to face Penals every game (which is exactly how Sov faction played since forever)
29 Dec 2018, 19:55 PM
#53
Posts: 808
Early game penals will win at all ranges, however you sacrifice map presence (which is why they over perform in team games) as that is not an issue in 3v3's and 4v4's, even then once axis inf vet and upgrade they scale better then penals. No change needed, countering blobs is a l2p issue
29 Dec 2018, 20:23 PM
#54
Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4
Invised multiple posts for being offtopic, excess flame and just generally unconsctructive.
29 Dec 2018, 20:38 PM
#55
Posts: 2272 | Subs: 1
there was an about 5-month long penal preview patch and like 50 threads about penals in forum.
29 Dec 2018, 21:53 PM
#56
Posts: 1392
there was an about 5-month long penal preview patch and like 50 threads about penals in forum.
New commander-revamp, new multiplayer feeling, new thread.
29 Dec 2018, 21:59 PM
#57
Posts: 1096
there was an about 5-month long penal preview patch and like 50 threads about penals in forum.
Was going to say. We can't rework the penals again. I don't think the forum would survive it XD
30 Dec 2018, 07:00 AM
#58
Posts: 810
penal is fine
nerf guard rifle and buff some cons
nerf guard rifle and buff some cons
30 Dec 2018, 12:34 PM
#59
Posts: 2358
swap penals with conscripts. Nerf penals. Buff conscripts. Tweak costs. Penals squads cant reinforce anymore. Balance in universe restored.
30 Dec 2018, 12:49 PM
#60
Posts: 1979
swap penals with conscripts. Nerf penals. Buff conscripts. Tweak costs. Penals squads cant reinforce anymore. Balance in universe restored.
penals cant reinforce? they wont be used anymore....
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