Rework Penals

newsflash!: maxims are (more then half) decent, just the people using them aren't

they are qualitatively the worst mg ingame by a large margin... they are worse than the MG-34 but cost more than the MG-34... by that comparison they should either go cheaper @240mp or get increased suppression and damage neither of which they get...

newsflash!: maxims are (more then half) decent, just the people using them aren't

Wow burn.

Except maxims are awful in comparison to its peers. Especially now that the 50.cal is readily available it moves to the bottom of the pile.

Maxims need to be spammed to be effective.
One maxim cannot do half of what one MG42 can do.
Maxim needs more suppression than it has

Just make the maxim cost 240mp again. That is the price it should have with the preformance gap between mg42 and maxim.
Or make the mg42 more expensive. Its unacceptable that the maxim costs the same as an mg42 wich is in every area but hp the better machine gun.

actually even the MG-34 outdoes the maxim at this point... it has to get buffs to be more useful as it takes 2x maxims to get the suppressive firepower of 1 mg42

Correct me if i'm wrong.
The initial design of maxim and mg42 was:
- MG42 has wider arc, but lower mobility. It supposed to be used defensively but it can suppress widelyspread groups of infantry.
- Maxim has much less arc, but high mobility. It's supposed to be used actively - it cannot suppress widely spread groups, you constantly need to take better position.

For now maxm has larger arc, but suppression was nerfed IMO too much. The arc is still less than of MG42, the speed is only faster when packing up.

I think if we lower maxim price now, it can only lead to more spamming. We need to make maxim effective again. Maybe decrease firing arc again, but give the proper suppression

Correct me if i'm wrong.
The initial design of maxim and mg42 was:
- MG42 has wider arc, but lower mobility. It supposed to be used defensively but it can suppress widelyspread groups of infantry.
- Maxim has much less arc, but high mobility. It's supposed to be used actively - it cannot suppress widely spread groups, you constantly need to take better position.

For now maxm has larger arc, but suppression was nerfed IMO too much. The arc is still less than of MG42, the speed is only faster when packing up.

I think if we lower maxim price now, it can only lead to more spamming. We need to make maxim effective again. Maybe decrease firing arc again, but give the proper suppression

the maxim was only spammed because conscripts are shit... ive already made a suggestion on how to fix the entire maxim-conscript-penal debacle

penals - nerf to volks mosin clone give optional DP upgrade but keep PTRS as optional

SVT deathblobs wont occur but penals are now good at holding the line but lose alot of dps on the move... no more unstoppable deathblobs...

cons - ppsh becomes nondoc... ppsh commander abilities get replaced by cons storm package with smoke grenades HE nade and hit the dirt...

cons are still balanced vs grens earlygame but now can compete vs grens lategame without getting slaughtered

maxim - +0.001 suppression and inc damage...

maxim no longer becomes useless

newsflash!: maxims are (more then half) decent

Compared to what?
Combat engineers or conscripts?

The topic of this thread is Penal, lets move away from conscripts and maxim. This unit could easily receive minor buffs if when penal power level is decrease Soviet prove to be weak.

Another issue with Penal are the very strong offensive vet bonuses their receive combined with their very strong base stats.

The topic of this thread is Penal, lets move away from conscripts and maxim. This unit could easily receive minor buffs if when penal power level is decrease Soviet prove to be weak.

Another issue with Penal are the very strong offensive vet bonuses their receive combined with their very strong base stats.

Oh please, don't use "their vet is stronk" argument.
It didn't worked on cons, it won't work on penals for exact same reason.

And that reason is:
Units with weapon upgrades scale better then units without it.

Yes, their vet is strong, but DPS increase they get is still much lower then units with access to upgrades(which is literally any other rifle unit in game).

In fact, their vet is like that SPECIFICALLY so they are able to scale without weapon upgrade and we still have axis equivalent who got equally strong vet, is cheaper out of the gate and gets weapon upgrade while also being 6 man squad and having much more utility.

did not intend the subject from penals to maxims folks

excuse me Kappa


carry on xD

Oh please, don't use "their vet is stronk" argument.
It didn't worked on cons, it won't work on penals for exact same reason.

And that reason is:
Units with weapon upgrades scale better then units without it.

That is simply false. Conscript veterancy is not broken because their base stat noway near Penals.

When Obers costed 400 and come with lmgs they where broken once the reached vet 5 although they did not have a weapon upgrade and that is why their veterancy bonuses where nerfed.

Having or not having a weapon upgrade is no very relevant to veterancy bonuses and scaling.

Yes, their vet is strong, but DPS increase they get is still much lower then units with access to upgrades(which is literally any other rifle unit in game).

In fact, their vet is like that SPECIFICALLY so they are able to scale without weapon upgrade and we still have axis equivalent who got equally strong vet, is cheaper out of the gate and gets weapon upgrade while also being 6 man squad and having much more utility.

No their vet bonuses where not specifically designed like that, their veterancy bonuses where designed when come with flamer and their SVT had allot less accuracy, once they got buffe their vet bonuses become simply too high.

The circle argument that they are expensive so they need to be strong is simply flawed. Lower price remove SVT and give them a weapon upgrade and they will be far better balanced.

The topic of this thread is Penal, lets move away from conscripts and maxim. This unit could easily receive minor buffs if when penal power level is decrease Soviet prove to be weak.

Another issue with Penal are the very strong offensive vet bonuses their receive combined with their very strong base stats.

actually it does... the whole reason why sov performs well is because penals serve as its crutch... if the crutch is removed without setting the leg you are only worsening the injury...

actually it does... the whole reason why sov performs well is because penals serve as its crutch... if the crutch is removed without setting the leg you are only worsening the injury...

We will not know unless Penal are nerfed. As I have clearly said if and when Penal are nerfed the other option like maxim conscripts might need some buffs.
(Guards and Shock troops are currently very strong also, so that might become meta)

It is my opinion that both Penal and VG should be nerfed. Once that is done one can check to see what other things needs fixing.

Imo that should be done using wer as bench mark since it is (or it used to be) one of the best designed factions.

We will not know unless Penal are nerfed. As I have clearly said if and when Penal are nerfed the other option like maxim conscripts might need some buffs.
(Guards and Shock troops are currently very strong also, so that might become meta)

It is my opinion that both Penal and VG should be nerfed. Once that is done one can check to see what other things needs fixing.

Imo that should be done using wer as bench mark since it is (or it used to be) one of the best designed factions.

Yes, that's exactly what we need, faction nerfed out of the game just because someone got his mind stuck on a problem that doesn't exist.

Nothing will help soviets more then making them pre buff UKF 2.0 just to "see" if other, painfully obviously underpowered units that literally no one uses due to how weak they are might be needing a buff.

Soviets have absolutely nothing else to rely on and you want to take that away as well just to see something obvious.

Yes, that's exactly what we need, faction nerfed out of the game just because someone got his mind stuck on a problem that doesn't exist.

Nothing will help soviets more then making them pre buff UKF 2.0 just to "see" if other, painfully obviously underpowered units that literally no one uses due to how weak they are might be needing a buff.

Soviets have absolutely nothing else to rely on and you want to take that away as well just to see something obvious.

Soviet are currently the one of the stronger factions in the game, if that is only a result of Penal, the faction is badly design and the meta will always remain T1.

The rest of the post are simply flawed theories which I will not even bother responding to.

Alright I see your point about team games.

Penals are a bad design so far because they haven't found a utility for them, instead of fixing the issue that is Soviet's teching flow they just made them a sort of overperforming "anti-infantry" unit.
By their own word, "we're making penals a dedicated anti-infantry unit".

Then by the next patch, they give them PTRS and anti-tank satchels.... zzzz...

They are clueless about soviets, I don't know who exactly, but they are clueless, they just seem to address the wrong stats whenever balancing their units.

They made DSHK completely shit, axis tears complaining it was instapinning their units, when the MG42 literally has the same stats except the arc and range.

The Maxims? Another bad design, it was easy to spam, so what do they do? They make it bad at everything, setting up, dps and suppression rate.
Why not increase DPS and give it a mild setting up time? So it does what it's suppose to: support your infantry.
Whats worse is that the MG42 and Vickers are better at EVERYTHING, so it can be spammed just as easy, and support infantry better than maxims because it can be used offensively.


So yeah, I get where you are coming from about penals, but it's truly a problem with soviet's teching, not penals only.

To find a new and appropriate use for penals, they need to revamp the teching, and ditch that idea about making penals somewhat a better anti-infantry when soviets already have guards and shocks, and their design has always been to get cheap infantry units that are aided by elite ones, or rely on fast and cheap tanks.

Penals just don't fit in all of this, but since you have nothing else going for them, you will just end up doing guards+penals because it works, on any map, any mode, any scenario.

Soviet are currently the one of the stronger factions in the game, if that is only a result of Penal, the faction is badly design and the meta will always remain T1.

The rest of the post are simply flawed theories which I will not even bother responding to.

Don't be surprised, but it is actually only thanks to penals and guards.
Remove this and soviets are suddenly the weakest faction.

They were the worst faction before they buffed penals, also remember that before then, it was nothing but maxim spam if you wanted to win.
Soviets have been a cheesy faction thorought the all of COH 2 history, every meta has been nothing but cheesey strats, from scout car+snipers to maxim spam.

Correct me if i'm wrong.
The initial design of maxim and mg42 was:
- MG42 has wider arc, but lower mobility. It supposed to be used defensively but it can suppress widelyspread groups of infantry.
- Maxim has much less arc, but high mobility. It's supposed to be used actively - it cannot suppress widely spread groups, you constantly need to take better position.

For now maxm has larger arc, but suppression was nerfed IMO too much. The arc is still less than of MG42, the speed is only faster when packing up.

I think if we lower maxim price now, it can only lead to more spamming. We need to make maxim effective again. Maybe decrease firing arc again, but give the proper suppression

we need to stop trying to tie soviet special units to the same price point as their counterparts. something like a machine gun if cheap will be spammed, if not good will be avoided. it needs to just accept that with a 6 man crew AND the stats required to actually function, it will be worth more than its counterparts.
bump it to 280/300mp and make it function properly as a machine gun.
you cut out the spam by making it too expensive. you sort of force con support just so there is field control. the maxim becomes support becaiuse you cant afford to have one everywhere (or rather 2 everywhere)
the 6 man crew makes it too hard to line up beside its counterparts as an equal

And speaking of flawed theories, why won't you reply? You're the very guru of them, you even got appraintance in Widerstreit.

thats enough Katitiof, what are you aiming to accomplish with this crap? its unnecessary and is just going to get invised. save everyone the trouble yea?