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OKW's 221 is too weak for its 20 fuel cost

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Sander93
24 Dec 2018, 10:05 AM
#41
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jump backJump back to quoted post24 Dec 2018, 10:00 AMKatitof
Only purpose of 221 is to upgrade to 223.
Its firepower is decent and its going to 1 burst kill sniper(2 on the move).

As you said it yourself, its purpose can be a relatively cheap potential counter to snipers (and HMG spam) that OKW currently does not have. Bully Infantry Sections in cover or defend flanks or remote sectors.


jump backJump back to quoted post24 Dec 2018, 10:00 AMKatitof
Given there is puppchen in T0, it shouldn't have any meaningful performance against lights.

This argument doesn't really make sense. It is supposed to be an alternative. Should we remove DShK and M42 from the game too because Soviets already have HMG and ATG in stock line up?


jump backJump back to quoted post24 Dec 2018, 10:00 AMKatitof
I can't see a single logical reason why 221 would exist other then give OKW something to build in early game that isn't volks.

That's exactly the point imo, to give OKW a viable alternative (together with new JLI) to actually have more than 1 viable opening strat. Diversity is good for the game's health.
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Vipper
24 Dec 2018, 10:06 AM
#42
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jump backJump back to quoted post24 Dec 2018, 09:55 AMTher200
You are comparing the fuel only with the combat effectiveness against eachother. Whilst to cost for a unit comes from much more aspects.

- The combat effectiveness against all other units it might face.

- Other utitlities (smoke, med crates, riegels, 223 potential with its abilities)


Besides this i think the 221 performs fine.

The other utility like riegel is great, just let me know when you plant one.
:)
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Lago
24 Dec 2018, 11:47 AM
#43
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Posts: 3260

The 221 is about as good as it can be in that price in that window.

The Clown Car works because it's up against a faction with Vet 0 extra-long range snares on most of the units it'll have at that point, and a faction with a T0 AT gun.

The 221 is up against USF, which has snares locked behind Vet 1, and UKF, which has both mines and snares on a T1 engineer unit.

If you turn the 221 into a potent shock unit against mainline infantry, you'll see it every game. You'd be giving the already strong early game faction a powerful super-light vehicle its opponents can't counter properly.

The balance team did a good job making the 223 work: it rolls out as a passable light vehicle that provides useful but not game-changing fire support in its window.

Once you have access to the 223 upgrade, the 221's window has passed and you upgrade them. Once things get too hot for the 223, you set it up on a fuel point and it pays back the 30 fuel you spent on it.
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Vipper
24 Dec 2018, 12:06 PM
#44
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jump backJump back to quoted post24 Dec 2018, 11:47 AMLago
The 221 is about as good as it can be in that price in that window.

No it is not it has only 1 armor more than Kubel, which come earlier and and is much cheaper.

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Dec 2018, 11:47 AMLago

The Clown Car works because it's up against a faction with Vet 0 extra-long range snares on most of the units it'll have at that point, and a faction with a T0 AT gun.

The 221 is up against USF, which has snares locked behind Vet 1, and UKF, which has both mines and snares on a T1 engineer unit.

If you turn the 221 into a potent shock unit against mainline infantry, you'll see it every game. You'd be giving the already strong early game faction a powerful super-light vehicle its opponents can't counter properly.

The balance team did a good job making the 223 work: it rolls out as a passable light vehicle that provides useful but not game-changing fire support in its window.

Once you have access to the 223 upgrade, the 221's window has passed and you upgrade them. Once things get too hot for the 223, you set it up on a fuel point and it pays back the 30 fuel you spent on it.

No it should no be very good vs infantry, but it should be better vs cars.
:)
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Lago
24 Dec 2018, 12:30 PM
#45
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No it is not it has only 1 armor more than Kubel, which come earlier and and is much cheaper.


And the Kubel had its armour reduced because small arms, all USF and UKF have to fight it early on, weren't reliable against it.

You make it more powerful, you turn it into a shock unit. You turn it into a shock unit, Elite Armor doctrine will become oppressive.

As a non-upgradable unit, it'd be pretty meh. But it isn't a non-upgradeable unit.

If you don't like the 221, don't buy it before your truck is up, then turn it into a 223 straight away.
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Vipper
24 Dec 2018, 12:35 PM
#46
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jump backJump back to quoted post24 Dec 2018, 12:30 PMLago


And the Kubel had its armour reduced because small arms, all USF and UKF have to fight it early on, weren't reliable against it.

Kubel does not require tech cost and it is allot cheaper.

Kubel spam was a problem but the unit is hardy used now, the 221 is simply not cost efficient.

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Dec 2018, 12:30 PMLago

You make it more powerful, you turn it into a shock unit. You turn it into a shock unit, Elite Armor doctrine will become oppressive.

And making it useless make revamping the commander pointless.

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Dec 2018, 12:30 PMLago

As a non-upgradable unit, it'd be pretty meh. But it isn't a non-upgradeable unit.

If you don't like the 221, don't buy it before your truck is up, then turn it into a 223 straight away.

The 223 is simply a more durable OPEL truck with 30 fuel cost and 4 pop and thus inferior.
:)
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gbem
24 Dec 2018, 12:42 PM
#47
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Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Dec 2018, 12:35 PMVipper

Kubel does not require tech cost and it is allot cheaper.

Kubel spam was a problem but the unit is hardy used now, the 221 is simply not cost efficient.


And making it useless make revamping the commander pointless.


The 223 is simply a more durable OPEL truck with 30 fuel cost and 4 pop and thus inferior.


Note that usf ukf and sov dont get T0 AT guns or snares without sidetechs or vet...

Give The allies t0 at guns... and free snares without sidetechs on basic units and sure we can buff the 221... otherwise its fine as it is...
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Lago
24 Dec 2018, 12:45 PM
#48
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Kubel does not require tech cost and it is allot cheaper.

Kubel spam was a problem but the unit is hardy used now, the 221 is simply not cost efficient.


It's not meant to be. If it were, you'd see them spammed. Imagine playing against Soviet T1 as USF.

The purpose of the 221 is to provide some helpful extra firepower and anti-team weapon support before the 223 upgrade unlocks. The 223 upgrade turns it into an anti-infantry 222 with a load of useful support abilities. It can also turn into a cache when you're not using it to pay back its fuel cost.

It is, first and foremost, a utility vehicle. If you'd rather an anti-infantry shock unit, build the Luchs.

And making it useless make revamping the commander pointless.


There's a world of difference between being useless and being a shock unit. The 221 is useful if you have it.

The 223 is simply a more durable OPEL truck with 30 fuel cost and 4 pop and thus inferior.


Opel trucks aren't fast, armoured and armed.
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Vipper
24 Dec 2018, 12:46 PM
#49
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jump backJump back to quoted post24 Dec 2018, 12:42 PMgbem


Note that usf ukf and sov dont get T0 AT guns or snares without sidetechs or vet...

Give The allies t0 at guns... and free snares without sidetechs on basic units and sure we can buff the 221... otherwise its fine as it is...

221 need tech and allot of fuel, both USF and UKF can counter it.

Also read my suggestions, the unit should not be design against infantry.
:)
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Vipper
24 Dec 2018, 12:47 PM
#50
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jump backJump back to quoted post24 Dec 2018, 12:45 PMLago

It's not meant to be. If it were, you'd see them spammed. Imagine playing against Soviet T1 as USF.

The purpose of the 221 is to provide some helpful extra firepower and anti-team weapon support before the 223 upgrade unlocks. The 223 upgrade turns it into an anti-infantry 222 with a load of useful support abilities. It can also turn into a cache when you're not using it to pay back its fuel cost.

It is, first and foremost, a utility vehicle. If you'd rather an anti-infantry shock unit, build the Luchs.

There's a world of difference between being useless and being a shock unit. The 221 is useful if you have it.

Opel trucks aren't fast, armoured and armed.

No one said it should be a shock unit, read my suggestions.

Opel truck is also cheaper and hardy used in 1vs1.

In 2vs2 cashes are simply better.
:)
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gbem
24 Dec 2018, 12:55 PM
#51
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Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Dec 2018, 12:46 PMVipper

221 need tech and allot of fuel, both USF and UKF can counter it.

Also read my suggestions, the unit should not be design against infantry.


Fine then... give it an mg34 with ap rounds but cut its damage vs infantry by half...
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Lago
24 Dec 2018, 13:00 PM
#52
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jump backJump back to quoted post24 Dec 2018, 12:47 PMVipper
Opel truck is also cheaper and hardy used in 1vs1.


That's because all an Opel truck can do is be a cache.

A 223 can...
  • ...fight like an M20 Utility Car.
  • ...passively detect vehicles through the fog of war.
  • ...drop medical supplies.
  • ...provide a lot of sight.
  • ...deploy smoke with veterancy.
  • ...turn into a cache.
  • ...deploy very early without teching in a weaker form, then refit itself into a full 223.

If you zero in on only one of these abilities, it's pretty lackluster. But it can do all of them, switching roles as needed. The balance team did a good job on it.
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Vipper
24 Dec 2018, 13:31 PM
#53
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jump backJump back to quoted post24 Dec 2018, 13:00 PMLago


That's because all an Opel truck can do is be a cache.

No that is because Opel truck benefits only the owner and not the team. The more player the better the caches becomes.

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Dec 2018, 13:00 PMLago

A 223 can...
  • ...fight like an M20 Utility Car.
  • ...passively detect vehicles through the fog of war.
  • ...drop medical supplies.
  • ...provide a lot of sight.
  • ...deploy smoke with veterancy.
  • ...turn into a cache.
  • ...deploy very early without teching in a weaker form, then refit itself into a full 223.

If you zero in on only one of these abilities, it's pretty lackluster. But it can do all of them, switching roles as needed. The balance team did a good job on it.

Yes that is 223 and not the 221.

Now compare the 223 with the m20 and you will see it inferior as combat vehicle while requiring more fuel, while the utility its utility is not that great for 30 fuel and 4 pop.

NO the 223 is not cache, it is simply a more expensive Opel with a pop of 4 and fuel cost of 30, that can fire back.




:)
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Stug life
24 Dec 2018, 13:36 PM
#54
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Posts: 4474

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Dec 2018, 12:42 PMgbem


Note that usf ukf and sov dont get T0 AT guns or snares without sidetechs or vet...

Give The allies t0 at guns... and free snares without sidetechs on basic units and sure we can buff the 221... otherwise its fine as it is...
if they cant wait for counter (like ost does) why not pick a doc with eraly at ? to counter a doc with a lv ?
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
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aomsinzana
24 Dec 2018, 13:54 PM
#55
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jump backJump back to quoted post24 Dec 2018, 13:36 PMStug life
if they cant wait for counter (like ost does) why not pick a doc with eraly at ? to counter a doc with a lv ?


Osteer only have a trouble against T70, not against 1st minute mark clown car, UC or WC51.
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Stug life
24 Dec 2018, 14:00 PM
#56
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Posts: 4474

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Dec 2018, 13:54 PMaomsinzana


Osteer only have a trouble against T70, not against 1st minute mark clown car, UC or WC51.
yea and the 221 comes only after 50 fuel what's the problem
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
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Katitof
24 Dec 2018, 14:09 PM
#57
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jump backJump back to quoted post24 Dec 2018, 14:00 PMStug life
yea and the 221 comes only after 50 fuel what's the problem

I wonder if free fausts, in case of ost from get go and in case for volks around 2nd-3rd minute, but get T0 ATG while allies have no access to snares at the time 221 comes could be one.

(its rethorical question, the answer is yes, that)
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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aomsinzana
24 Dec 2018, 14:09 PM
#58
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Problem is not a single units on USF and Brits (doctrine or not) can dealing with rush 221 on the first or even second minute mark if the game allow to build 221 on the first minute
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gbem
24 Dec 2018, 14:20 PM
#59
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Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Dec 2018, 14:00 PMStug life
yea and the 221 comes only after 50 fuel what's the problem


50 fuel? it takes 35 fuel to get the 221...
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Vipper
24 Dec 2018, 14:59 PM
#60
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Some stat about cars:
221
HP 240 armor 4/
cost 220/20 pop 4

Kubel
HP 240 armor 3/1.9
cost 210 pop 3

UC
HP 240 armor 7/4.1
cost 260 pop 3

M3
HP 200 armor 5.4/4.2
cost 190/15 pop 3

WC51
HP 240 armor 3.9/2.5
cost 200 pop 3

M20
HP 240 armor 11/5.5
cost 240/20 pop 4
:)
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