Major Unbalancing

well the point is cost efficiency... volks trade individual power for cost efficiency vs rifles... rifles can crush volks on a 1 on 1... but trade that for greater field presence and much lower manpower trickle...

cons trade power for nothing... they are neither as cost efficient as volks nor as powerful as rifles... when compared to volks they are damn near useless...

Cons are the most utility effective infantry ingame. They have access to things many other factions mainlines do not. Cheap infantry mines that give vision, nondoc sprint, sandbags, molotovs, 6 men, merge, snares. Cons also have some of the best vet for cheapest reinforce cost ingame. They're not currently designed to be your main fighting force against OKW, penals are. If I tried to out trade a garrisoned vickers with an MG34 I'd get my ass whooped, because that isn't what the MG34 is designed to do. Use things how they're designed, not how you want them.

But it works so damn well when you use certain doctrines.

Adv war with PPSH cons that fixes your T-34-85 is unbelievably useful.

But that about the other 13 doctrines I have for the Soviet? Why should one NEED a doctrine to make their "core" infantry viable? Who else NEEDS a doctrine for a stock unit to function?

Who else NEEDS a doctrine for a stock unit to function?

This is what people say for the KT currently...

But it works so damn well when you use certain doctrines.

Adv war with PPSH cons that fixes your T-34-85 is unbelievably useful.

volks with stgs outperform even ppsh cons at most ranges except hugging distance not to mention the ppsh is doctrinal...

Cons are the most utility effective infantry ingame. They have access to things many other factions mainlines do not. Cheap infantry mines that give vision, nondoc sprint, sandbags, molotovs, 6 men, merge, snares. Cons also have some of the best vet for cheapest reinforce cost ingame. They're not currently designed to be your main fighting force against OKW, penals are. If I tried to out trade a garrisoned vickers with an MG34 I'd get my ass whooped, because that isn't what the MG34 is designed to do. Use things how they're designed, not how you want them.

sandbags and molotovs is something volks do better... 6 men is paid for by having huge target sizes and anemic DPS... not to mention that 6 man is actually a disadvantage for the conscript as the huge target sizes and anemic DPS means that they BLEED manpower like crazy... volks get FREE snares with tech...

the only real advantage is the flare mine merge and oorah... but cons pay for that with vastly inferior combat ability... expensive AT nades (!!!) extremely horrendous manpower bleed and the complete lack of any nondoctrinal weapon upgrade...

conscripts as of the moment need doctrines to be BOUGHT... nobody brings conscripts out without bringing the doctrinal ppsh as they are simply a manpower sink

if penals are designed to be my main fighting force while conscripts are just glorified combat engineers... then does that mean that the maxim is T2s main fighting force? can i have my 240 mp super fast maxim back?

This is what people say for the KT currently...

The KT needs buffs for sure. Rather allied TDs need a rework that manages to have them function as AT units without negating armour and I think the lowered panther armour is the first step to that. Regardless, the KT still packs a punch, it's just too expensive. It's still a threat to everything it turns its gun on but allied meta has a counter ready. None of that is true for cons

Also what commander makes the KT viable?
And side not are we really likening cons to a KT? is core infantry that is supposed to be used from The word go really comparable to the most expensive unit in the game?

This is what people say for the KT currently...

the KT is useful but expensive... saving up for it in 1v1s is a surefire way of losing because of its cost... BUT conscripts are useless and expensive for their cost... using conscripts without heavy ppsh play is also another surefire way of losing

sandbags and molotovs is something volks do better... 6 men is paid for by having huge target sizes and anemic DPS... not to mention that 6 man is actually a disadvantage for the conscript as the huge target sizes and anemic DPS means that they BLEED manpower like crazy...

This is just incorrect ^

volks get FREE snares with tech...

Yep, just like T34s get the same punching power on their MGs that P4s need to pay for.

the only real advantage is the flare mine merge and oorah... but cons pay for that with vastly inferior combat ability... expensive AT nades (!!!) extremely horrendous manpower bleed and the complete lack of any nondoctrinal weapon upgrade...

This'll be part of final point at bottom

conscripts as of the moment need doctrines to be BOUGHT... nobody brings conscripts out without bringing the doctrinal ppsh as they are simply a manpower sink

People don't buy them against OKW cause they get dumpstered, you'll see them far more frequently against OST.

if penals are designed to be my main fighting force while conscripts are just glorified combat engineers... then does that mean that the maxim is T2s main fighting force? can i have my 240 mp super fast maxim back?

The point you seem to be missing is that conscripts ARE GOOD against OST. NOT OKW. Vet 0 cons and vet 0 grens trade very evenly, but you're asking for higher punching power for cons per manpower which would completely ruin that balance just to attempt to balance it vs OKW. And then what of penals? You'd completely invalidate penals because cons would be good vs both.

The KT needs buffs for sure. Rather allied TDs need a rework that manages to have them function as AT units without negating armour and I think the lowered panther armour is the first step to that. Regardless, the KT still packs a punch, it's just too expensive. It's still a threat to everything it turns its gun on but allied meta has a counter ready. None of that is true for cons

Also what commander makes the KT viable?
And side not are we really likening cons to a KT? is core infantry that is supposed to be used from The word go really comparable to the most expensive unit in the game?

Elite armor, my response fit the criteria of your question, nothing more.

the KT is useful but expensive... saving up for it in 1v1s is a surefire way of losing because of its cost... BUT conscripts are useless and expensive for their cost... using conscripts without heavy ppsh play is also another surefire way of losing

Cons good vs grens, bad vs OKW.

This is just incorrect ^

how is it incorrect? the volk sandbag is smaller and can be placed on a point which deny`s its use for the enemy meanwhile the cons sandbag has to be wired by engies to be useful

the volk incendiary nade is outright superior to the molotov despite being free

conscripts do have huge target sizes and lower DPM that volks

6 man squads do logically speaking bleed more than 5 man squads especially when their huge target sizes and anemic dps is considered (i have more HP but i take more damage so i bleed more)

Yep, just like T34s get the same punching power on their MGs that P4s need to pay for.

the T-34 is inferior vs tanks in contrast to the P4... the P4 pays their price for better armor armor penetration accuracy and HP... all that MG does is give not only T-34 levels of anti infantry but also give superior anti tank aswell...

People don't buy them against OKW cause they get dumpstered, you'll see them far more frequently against OST.



The point you seem to be missing is that conscripts ARE GOOD against OST. NOT OKW. Vet 0 cons and vet 0 grens trade very evenly, but you're asking for higher punching power for cons per manpower which would completely ruin that balance just to attempt to balance it vs OKW. And then what of penals? You'd completely invalidate penals because cons would be good vs both.

actually the cons gren matchup is interesting... doctrines aside cons and grens are pretty even early in the game with grens coming out on top at long distances and cons at shorter ones... problem is the moment grens actually get the LMG-42 conscripts become outright useless...

a non doctrinal cons gren matchup is actually a losing proposition for cons...

this is why you see conscripts used even vs ost only when PPSHs are available... the fact that conscripts actually require a doctrine to become useful is telling to how useless they truly are stock... even against grens

maybe PPSHs need to become nondoc while the ppsh ability gets replaced with a conscript storm package with hit the dirt smoke nades and an HE nade...

this coupled with a maxim buff would make T2 very viable indeed

how is it incorrect? the volk sandbag is smaller and can be placed on a point which deny`s its use for the enemy meanwhile the cons sandbag has to be wired by engies to be useful

Smaller is not always better, most of the time it is here since territory flags can be used to block opposition from using it, but smaller bags and traps also suffer from not always having your whole squad behind the entirity of the bag. Large bags do not suffer from this.

the volk incendiary nade is outright superior to the molotov despite being free

No it is not. The molotov has better DoT than the incin grenade as well as being cheaper.

conscripts do have huge target sizes and lower DPM that volks

Because volks pay for that power. 250MP squad vs 240MP.

6 man squads do logically speaking bleed more than 5 man squads especially when their huge target sizes and anemic dps is considered (i have more HP but i take more damage so i bleed more)

I wouldn't be saying "huge" by comparison, and although conscripts target sizes are larger, their cost is mathmatically equal to that of grens, which they perform equal too. Larger squads are systematically better in terms of dealing with things which are not relying on accuracy to hit models. Things like ballistic and explosive weapons. They're systematically equal to things dealing with accuracy in terms of stats, because that's how they're (un)balanced. 6 man squads do not logically bleed more.

the T-34 is inferior vs tanks in contrast to the P4... the P4 pays their price for better armor armor penetration accuracy and HP... all that MG does is give not only T-34 levels of anti infantry but also give superior anti tank aswell...

Yes, and they pay for that power in price, the T34 gets it for free.

actually the cons gren matchup is interesting... doctrines aside cons and grens are pretty even early in the game with grens coming out on top at long distances and cons at shorter ones... problem is the moment grens actually get the LMG-42 conscripts become outright useless...

a non doctrinal cons gren matchup is actually a losing proposition for cons...

this is why you see conscripts used even vs ost only when PPSHs are available... the fact that conscripts actually require a doctrine to become useful is telling to how useless they truly are stock... even against grens

I'm more than happy to explain why things work the way they do, but repeatedly correcting the same general census of "cons not beating OKW alone, need buff" is tiring when there is no attempt to see the other side of the battle.

Smaller is not always better, most of the time it is here since territory flags can be used to block opposition from using it, but smaller bags and traps also suffer from not always having your whole squad behind the entirity of the bag. Large bags do not suffer from this.

still there is significant advantage to being able to make small sandbags that you can block relatively easily

No it is not. The molotov has better DoT than the incin grenade as well as being cheaper.

the incendiary nade does damage on detonation and has larger range... both arguably more important than DOT

Because volks pay for that power. 250MP squad vs 240MP.

and cons pay for that in bleed

I wouldn't be saying "huge" by comparison, and although conscripts target sizes are larger, their cost is mathmatically equal to that of grens, which they perform equal too. Larger squads are systematically better in terms of dealing with things which are not relying on accuracy to hit models. Things like ballistic and explosive weapons. They're systematically equal to things dealing with accuracy in terms of stats, because that's how they're (un)balanced. 6 man squads do not logically bleed more.

yes conscript reinforce cost is equal to grens at 120MP... but the reason as to why cons bleed more is like this
take this situation
i had a unit with 100 hp fires 1 shot a second and doing 10HP damage each... lets call this guy obers

now i had another unit with 10 HP had 10 models of them firing 1 shot every second doing 1 damage each... lets call him infantryman

lets now play the engagement
first second all guys fire and obers takes 10 damage and infantryman takes 10 damage AND loses a model...
as for round 2 only 9 models fire and obers takes 9 damage while infantryman takes 10 and loses another model...
as for the rest of the rounds infantryman either continues till he loses or runs away in retreat...

as you can see obers has no bleed while infantryman has a significant bleed...


now yes conscripts may have 80 hp like volks do... but their awful target size acts as a substitute for low HP... and their anemic dps means that they cant cause bleed to the volks squad...

now lets simulate a theoretical volks vs cons midrange engagement
cons have overall worse dps worse target size but more HP
volks have better target size and DPS but worse HP

volks and cons engage...
cons fires at volks but the low accuracy means shots are missing
volks fires at cons and cons take damage
battle continues*
volks kills a cons model... cons firepower drops
volks kills another cons model... cons firepower drops more
cons kill a volks model... volks firepower drops

cons either continue bleeding or retreat bleeding 40mp to the 25 for volks...

Yes, and they pay for that power in price, the T34 gets it for free.

the T-34 has to be more cost efficient as it is cheaper... this is the volks vs rifles argument and is the reason why volks are significantly more cost effective than rifles... they trade individual firepower for field presence...

problem is the conscript trades it for nothing...

I'm more than happy to explain why things work the way they do, but repeatedly correcting the same general census of "cons not beating OKW alone, need buff" is tiring when there is no attempt to see the other side of the battle.

i see why... making it 220mp may break cons vs grens balance... but that doesnt change the fact that cons vs grens balance doesnt exist outside of a ppsh commander... conscripts get slaughtered by grens if they dont get access to the PPSH...

keep the 240 cost then for earlygame balance vs grens but make the PPSH nondoc... replace the PPSH doc with a conscript storm package with smoke HE and hit the dirt...

also the maxim is hot shit... it needs buffs to be decent at the very least... good access to cons ppsh prevents maxim spam and a buffed maxim means T2 is no longer tied to PPSH doctrines...

Stuff

You're still missing the point. Cons do not work vs OKW. They work very much fine vs OST. 100% upseting the balance with OST so we can attempt to beging making volks equal to cons is absurd. Why would you trade an orange for another orange, when you can keep the orange and not have to go through the process of trading your orange for the exact same thing.

Your theoredical arguement works in your situation only. Say a grenadier drops a model first against a conscript, grenadiers now have a major disadvantage in that engagement. It's not cons losing consistantly, it's RNG dependant.

Cons were used largely in GCS2, the faction that held the highest non skewed winrate (over 50% against both axis factions). Something tells me they function well enough.

You're still missing the point. Cons do not work vs OKW. They work very much fine vs OST. 100% upseting the balance with OST so we can attempt to beging making volks equal to cons is absurd. Why would you trade an orange for another orange, when you can keep the orange and not have to go through the process of trading your orange for the exact same thing.

as i previously said....

i see why... making it 220mp may break cons vs grens balance... but that doesnt change the fact that cons vs grens balance doesnt exist outside of a ppsh commander... conscripts get slaughtered by grens if they dont get access to the PPSH...

keep the 240 cost then for earlygame balance vs grens but make the PPSH nondoc... replace the PPSH doc with a conscript storm package with smoke HE and hit the dirt...

Your theoredical arguement works in your situation only. Say a grenadier drops a model first against a conscript, grenadiers now have a major disadvantage in that engagement. It's not cons losing consistantly, it's RNG dependant.

in most engagements both theoretical and actual cons drop models faster than volks do... the engagement vs grens is alot more balanced however until grens get the lmg while cons get clobbered...

Cons were used largely in GCS2, the faction that held the highest non skewed winrate (over 50% against both axis factions). Something tells me they function well enough.

only with the help of the PPSH... cons cannot hope to match grens without the help of doctrines... the mere fact that a faction`s core infantry cannot function without a doctrine means that the faction is broken...

mind you penal builds were largely successful against OST aswell... that 50% cannot be attributed to cons alone

only with the help of the PPSH... cons cannot hope to match grens without the help of doctrines... the mere fact that a faction`s core infantry cannot function without a doctrine means that the faction is broken...

No not really.

When that faction has the better win rate in tournaments it means it is fine.

You mean like this?

https://clips.twitch.tv/SuccessfulOutstandingGiraffeShadyLulu

Yup, thanks for the clip =)

This was even better than the one I saw since this AT Nade curved around a fence. This will help to educate the thread poster about COH2 mechanics, which admittedly aren't intuitive at all.

No not really.

When that faction has the better win rate in tournaments it means it is fine.

penals won the tournament not conscripts... conscripts were only used with ppsh against ostheer only...
= sov T2 play only wins because doctrines = faction is broken...

also OKW now gets some powerful doctrines now... with JLI around obsoleting soviet penal play i have a feeling US assault engie OKW JLI meta will dominate the next tourney...

No not really.

When that faction has the better win rate in tournaments it means it is fine.

an OST equivalent to this would be nerfing grens to irrelevance... buffing the G-43 so that its really good in doctrines and calling it a day...

as i previously said....

i see why... making it 220mp may break cons vs grens balance... but that doesnt change the fact that cons vs grens balance doesnt exist outside of a ppsh commander... conscripts get slaughtered by grens if they dont get access to the PPSH...

keep the 240 cost then for earlygame balance vs grens but make the PPSH nondoc... replace the PPSH doc with a conscript storm package with smoke HE and hit the dirt...


in most engagements both theoretical and actual cons drop models faster than volks do... the engagement vs grens is alot more balanced however until grens get the lmg while cons get clobbered...




only with the help of the PPSH... cons cannot hope to match grens without the help of doctrines... the mere fact that a faction`s core infantry cannot function without a doctrine means that the faction is broken...

mind you penal builds were largely successful against OST aswell... that 50% cannot be attributed to cons alone

Please stay on topic. The thread poster wanted to discuss

1) MG34 being OP
2) Why do Volks have fausts? Why can't we just make them like Brits the previous patch, except worse? Why can't I automatically win vs OKW at the 3 minute mark once I build a UC or a clown car?
3) A doctrine that lets you pay muni to turn your Volks into Ass Grens with no sprint