Conscripts need to be cheaper

"scraping the barrel" ^^ the Blue-Division were 15k+ spanish soldiers.

So, now we have it. Late in the war Volkssturm-Units were also part on Volksgrenadier-Units.

Can't get it, what has freikorps being in volksturm anything to do with volksgrenadiers ?

Can't get it, what has freikorps being in volksturm anything to do with volksgrenadiers ?

Since late 1944 Freikorps got under the definition of Volkssturm. Volkssturm-soldiers were sometimes recruited to Volksgrenadier-Units, because of military experience.

That means, that later in the war Volksgrenadier-Battalions also had Volkssturm-Soldier in their lines. Renamed.

Also there were right Volkssturm-Units ordert by normal Generals, normally Volkssturm get ist high order bei Reichsgauleiter.

Go make a new topic on Ostheer Pioneers.

Anyways, Conscripts, as I have stated, should just a reduction on their upgrades that could maybe give them a boost. Communicating that these boosts don't overstack with weapon upgrades is another thing. Or stack this with teching up instead.

Regardless, I think things regarding manpower and/or numbers gives them the Soviet feel and attritional play they are designed for.

If Soviet are designed for attrition play why do they have access of 2 of the strongest infantry for their time frame (Penal and Guards), one the deadliest light vehicle (T-70) some of the toughest doctrinal tanks like the KV-1 and a TD with one of the best stock guns in the game (SU-85).

If Soviet are designed for attrition play why do they have access of 2 of the strongest infantry for their time frame (Penal and Guards), one the deadliest light vehicle (T-70) some of the toughest doctrinal tanks like the KV-1 and a TD with one of the best stock guns in the game (SU-85).

Because attrition didn't work if you can't inflict the enemy losses either. Both penals and guards have largish target sizes as far as elite infantry go meaning more losses, the kv1 is durable as all heck but it's cannon is hardly a power house- it's role is to grind the enemy away and outlast them which is pretty well the definition of attrition. I got nothing for the su85, it's irredeemably over performing imo...

If Soviet are designed for attrition play why do they have access of 2 of the strongest infantry for their time frame (Penal and Guards), one the deadliest light vehicle (T-70) some of the toughest doctrinal tanks like the KV-1 and a TD with one of the best stock guns in the game (SU-85).

Because they are designed to not only take attrition, but also inflict it you know.
If you think "designed for attrition" means only taking attrition without being able to cause any, I don't think you should be coming anywhere near balance discussions.
There are no stock soviet weapons with model focus like gren lmg or powerful AoEs like brummbar.

Because they are designed to not only take attrition, but also inflict it you know.
If you think "designed for attrition" means only taking attrition without being able to cause any, I don't think you should be coming anywhere near balance discussions.
There are no stock soviet weapons with model focus like gren lmg or powerful AoEs like brummbar.

Idk what your hate on for vipper is but it's exhausting...

Anywas to be fair there arnt any stock units quite like the brumbar, it's one of the few perks of Ost t4.

Anywas to be fair there arnt any stock units quite like the brumbar, it's one of the few perks of Ost t4.

True, but Soviets have Zis and SU-76 artillery-support to compensate the lack.

The old issue was that the damage of cons was too RNG based so Cons could either nuke a squad or do no damage. Now it feels like they do nothing at any range except close and even then it completely depends on how fast models drop. I dont see an issue with a slight buff to their mosins. As others said the attritional aspect of them doesn't really work all that well when you aren't killing models in return.

Anywas to be fair there arnt any stock units quite like the brumbar, it's one of the few perks of Ost t4.

Theres also the pwefer

The old issue was that the damage of cons was too RNG based so Cons could either nuke a squad or do no damage. Now it feels like they do nothing at any range except close and even then it completely depends on how fast models drop. I dont see an issue with a slight buff to their mosins. As others said the attritional aspect of them doesn't really work all that well when you aren't killing models in return. ...

They already have received more accuracy with veterancy.

The conscript vs grenadier is one of the best balanced match ups and is has been so for years. There is no reason to break it, instead other unit should fixed to achieve the level of balance.

Conscripts being a viable tactics has been tested and proven to be obnoxious.

In the end of the day Soviet are one of the strongest faction with many option and they hardly need more buffs, Penal where buffed to widen the meta and up they ended to become the meta.

True, but Soviets have Zis and SU-76 artillery-support to compensate the lack.

But that's more akin to mortar barrage then 1-2 hit wipe infantry murderfuck units.

They already have received more accuracy with veterancy.

The conscript vs grenadier is one of the best balanced match ups and is has been so for years. There is no reason to break it, instead other unit should fixed to achieve the level of balance.

Conscripts being a viable tactics has been tested and proven to be obnoxious.

In the end of the day Soviet are one of the strongest faction with many option and they hardly need more buffs, Penal where buffed to widen the meta and up they ended to become the meta.

That's why I don't want straight buffs for cons. A price reduction will make cons more cost effecient (or rather less cost ineffecient) withoit throwing the combat balance. 20mp isn't going to suddenly have cons out numbers grens or out fighting them but will lessen the hurt of getting them as a support unit.

If cons are at least halfway viable we can comfortably nerf penals (which as I have said in the past is something I feel needs to be done) without leaving a shitty version of Maxim spam left as the only option Soviet have. If cons are a whooping 80mp cheaper than penals someone might actually build them but the current idea of a unit that costs the same as the enemy units but performs worse AND needs an armful of manpower to even begin to function to its potential (again, despite there being no discount to get the bloody unit) isn't working. It's never worked. The entire life of the Soviet faction has been "try not to use conscripts" every strat revolves around using something in heavy replacement of cons.

Don't look at it as a buff for Soviet so much as a the first step to a much needed rebalance. It has to start somewhere and I think starting on one of theleast effecint infantry in game is a good place to start
I've suggested many ways to improve conscripts in the past, this is easily the least elegant but the quickest way to do it and get desired results.

But that's more akin to mortar barrage then 1-2 hit wipe infantry murderfuck units.

non equal cost

non equal cost

And performance, and consistence.
There is no equivalent as I have previously said.

But that's more akin to mortar barrage then 1-2 hit wipe infantry murderfuck units.

Versus 4men squads Zis-ability has same potential as Brummbär killing infantry. But Brummbär can use hit ground for more accuracy, Zis and SU-76 need lucky shots.

Why compare here so many ppl volks with stgs with cons without weapon Upgrades? It is ok that stg volks vs cons...they are much expansiver. Whenever i made comparison from penals/guards with other infantery u tell me the same: they must be better because expansiver.

So...stgs volks more expansive than cons= they must win. Giving cons any compareable weopans make them better than volks...

Why compare here so many ppl volks with stgs with cons without weapon Upgrades? It is ok that stg volks vs cons...they are much expansiver. Whenever i made comparison from penals/guards with other infantery u tell me the same: they must be better because expansiver.

So...stgs volks more expansive than cons= they must win. Giving cons any compareable weopans make them better than volks...

Because stock loudouts are being compared, volks have STGs and cons don't scale, even with increased vet?

And the issue is not volks being better, the issue is cons being bad without doctrinal dedication. Since forever. If mainline can't compete without a doctrine, it doesn't really deserve its cost since it doesn't live up to it.

Why compare here so many ppl volks with stgs with cons without weapon Upgrades? It is ok that stg volks vs cons...they are much expansiver. Whenever i made comparison from penals/guards with other infantery u tell me the same: they must be better because expansiver.

So...stgs volks more expansive than cons= they must win. Giving cons any compareable weopans make them better than volks...

To add to what katitof said:
250mp>240mp for sure.
250mp+60mu even more so!
Which wouldn't be an issue if to get the same things (but worse), const didn't have an additional 205mp and 35 fuel requirement.
For those keeping track back home in order getting molitovs and AT nades are actually more expensive than side teching and getting 3 new units after selecting their first tier.
Molitovs alone are the same price as Ost t1 (and take longer to research than Ost t1 takes to build)

And what's worse still is that molitovs are 20mu. 10 less than volks tech free flame nades but take longer to throw, have a shorter range AND an addition - not just playing the game cost.

Conscript design is out of date and suffers greatly from all the handouts volks get in contrast.

The difference between volks and cons is a fuck lot less than guards or penals and grens/volks. Volks and cons even have the most similar kit of abilities that like.. Anyone.
They tried to make volks have all the utility that is supposed to make cons viable while also having the contenders vs more expensive and more heavily armed allied counterparts.

Wait. You need to calc the cost which it need to get volks with grenades and faust than. And time. Which are the req for vet 3 cons and vet 5 volks.

That okw get other stuff with the Upgrade from volks is a other story.

And you forget: what can cons what volks cant? Sprint, merge, can be more fight relevant than faust and grenades and dmg.

Imagin u want to Flank one mg u see the first time. Or u cant reach the tank to set the important faust without Sprint. And than your support for teamweapons is much better with cons. And so one. And dont forget that the 50% more life than modt other ost squads. While the same price...have nondoc 60 range tds and so on

Cons need to be the weakest static fight squad...because the cheapest with mostly 50% more health nondoc squad.

Wait. You need to calc the cost which it need to get volks with grenades and faust than. And time. Which are the req for vet 3 cons and vet 5 volks.

Faust, flame nade and rifle nade have a total cost of ZERO.
They are exclusively time gated.

That okw get other stuff with the Upgrade from volks is a other story.

Yeah, its the story of getting free stuff with just teching.
Comlpetely other story then actually investing resources that contribute nothing to tech and slow it down.

And you forget: what can cons what volks cant? Sprint, merge, can be more fight relevant than faust and grenades and dmg.

Except, they aren't.
Oorah was nerfed with cost increase and it itself is useful exclusively for AT nades, in any other situation you're better of not using it.

Having actual reinforcement platform behind you in early game(251) is MUCH more powerful tool then merge, which in itself does completely nothing, unless you got cons exclusively for it, in which case, the point about cons being too expensive and too bad for actual combat just got even more reinforced by you.

Imagin u want to Flank one mg u see the first time. Or u cant reach the tank to set the important faust without Sprint. And than your support for teamweapons is much better with cons. And so one. And dont forget that the 50% more life than modt other ost squads. While the same price...have nondoc 60 range tds and so on

Imagine having a doctrine which allows all ost infantry to sprint and do that, imagine that infantry isn't magically downgraded to cons level and actually is capable of inflicting massive damage once its where you want it to be. Imagine your support weapon actually being killed by sprinting PGs or grens when just being chased off by cons shooting blanks.

50% life argument is as irrelevant as it gets, because ost weapons are balanced around fighting that life.

Cons need to be the weakest static fight squad...because the cheapest with mostly 50% more health nondoc squad.

And cons are the weakest fighting squad.

Now they only need the price that matches worst performance in game for mainline inf and 220mp is a good start.

That OKW and OKO abilities are free is a lie.

-Fire-grenade is behind 1st truck on field. (you have to build it as fast as possible, only to set it down, an unit without any extra sence = side-tech)
-Faust behind first building set. Ok, T1 is cheap, but that force you too build cheaper building first to counter clow-car. That is why OKW has cheap Püppie. Is also a hidden teching.

-Faust is behind T1 (ok, Grens are in it too, so you tech the Faust before you even build the first Gren, this is a relict of old Grens in T0, only relevant for Osttruppen)
-Rifle-Grenade is behind teching T2 (you don't need to build t2, you tech automatically, beside Soviets you have to tech passive, not simply build the tier)