Conscripts need to be cheaper

Why should they? Pios have a scouting ability they didn't get a price increase for and their MP40s are always a threat to weapon crew at the very least. Do you really think they are only worth 10mp more than combat engies?

Than:
a. decrease their range so they don't shoot at everything.
b. or give them K98, maybe also reduce their sice to 3 man maybe.

My point was that it's an easy mistake for someone not completely versed in history to mix up volkssturm and volksgrenadiers.

And regardless on which suffixed volks unit we are dealing with they are over performing for cost creating balancing issues.

But at any rate this is about cons. Cons vs grens has generally been the gold standard for infanty match ups, that has had to be altered because of volks which has lead to over buffed penals which has further led to the disuse of cons. A price reduction is the easiest way I can see to make cons attractive without creating a massive upset in balance. Even at 20mp cheaper than grens they would still lose when the weapon upgrades hit as they do now, so they won't be punching a over their weight by any means yet they allow instead for slightly better map control and make replacing them a lightly less damaging (keeping in mind they have 0 ways to boost performance to make up for lost vet unlike all other mainline without certain doctrines)

And again, if 220mp ppsh infantry is too effecient we can introduce them as their own t0 unit or adjust the price of the upgrade accordingly.

Or one can simply roll back in some of the changes to Penals and VG and thus one will not have to redesign USF and then UKF and the probably the OKW.


I am not sure why their is tendency not to roll back a bit if a change does not actually work but to move to uncharted territory.

...
Why should they? Pios have a scouting ability they didn't get a price increase for and their MP40s are always a threat to weapon crew at the very least. Do you really think they are only worth 10mp more than combat engies?

Pioneer are 200 and CE 170 that 30 manpower more not 10.

Pioneer are 200 and CE 170 that 30 manpower more not 10.

He suggested dropping pios to 180 which is 10 more than the 170 CE.

And regardless on which suffixed volks unit we are dealing with they are over performing for cost creating balancing issues.

Again, I still fail to see how this is true. No one has made really made an actual argument about how this is the case.

I would say just give Cons the PPSh upgrade non-doctrinally but reduce the number of PPSh's to two to reduce the DPS a bit but also make the cost 40 munitions. Require T3 to be built in order for the upgrade to become available. It would give them better scaling without making them seem too durable.

He suggested dropping pios to 180 which is 10 more than the 170 CE.

Compare them. They are even worse then soviet pios, because their weapon-profile is so bad, that their flamer will be a nerf, not a buff.

Still:
-3men and K98 (Volk model) 170mp
or
-4men better MP40 (but we still have Sturmgrens)

Then we can speak about reducing price of Cons. ^^

Compare them. They are even worse then soviet pios, because their weapon-profile is so bad, that their flamer will be a nerf, not a buff.

Still:
-3men and K98 (Volk model) 170mp
or
-4men better MP40 (but we still have Sturmgrens)

Then we can speak about reducing price of Cons. ^^

CE are bad at EVERY range, at least pios are good up close.
But since you want to compare:
Pios have-
Above average LOS
Sand bags
2x mines
Bunkers
Wire
Flamer
Sweeper
Good dps up close

CE have
Demos (lol)
Wire
Mines
Flamer
Sweeper
????
4 of the old shitty con mosins

And what ever you feel is wrong with pios has no impact on cons. They are not competitors, they fill different roles entirely. You don't seem to understand how balance works. There is no "if you don't change everything you can't change anything" that's stupid.

CE are bad at EVERY range, at least pios are good up close.
But since you want to compare:
Pios have-
Above average LOS
Sand bags
2x mines
Bunkers
Wire
Flamer
Sweeper
Good dps up close

CE have
Demos (lol)
Wire
Mines
Flamer
Sweeper
????
4 of the old shitty con mosins

And what ever you feel is wrong with pios has no impact on cons. They are not competitors, they fill different roles entirely. You don't seem to understand how balance works. There is no "if you don't change everything you can't change anything" that's stupid.

Yep, they still perform better as fighting unit. And my changes wouldn't make them more effective as soviet-pios. It would only fix the fail-design or the bug on it.


They have sight, but they shoots with the worst MP on range 35.
Result:
1. They can't scount silent.
2. They put them self into danger, because there will allways be Units with more range and they destroy their surprise-effect.

My Change idea:
1. Give them a logical weapon. To compensate their improvement reduce their sice to 3 and increase their rep-speed to compensate. So they becomes a real passive unit. AND the flamer don't destroy the weapon-profile.
2. Or reduce the range of their MP down from range 35 to 20. So they can scout, but they are still bad designed.

And you know how balance works? lol Ostheer Pios went through hell and now they are more useless then ever bevor. Bad in repair, worst MP in game (only Ostheer weapon-crew has worse) and brocken scouting.
And sure, if you make Cons cheaper and the fight Cons-vs-Grens is balanced, then you can 1. Change Grens to compensate OR us a useless unit and optimice them so they can support if needed.

They will not be better than soviet-pios, they will not be better than Osttruppen. But they will be better than current Pios by put their small ultra-colse advantage and but it into a more balanced weapon-profile.

It seems you don't understand what revamp or a restructuring is. A change must not be a nerf/buff over all.

Yep, they still perform better as fighting unit. And my changes wouldn't make them more effective as soviet-pios. It would only fix the fail-design or the bug on it.


They have sight, but they shoots with the worst MP on range 35.
Result:
1. They can't scount silent.
2. They put them self into danger, because there will allways be Units with more range and they destroy their surprise-effect.

My Change idea:
1. Give them a logical weapon. To compensate their improvement reduce their sice to 3 and increase their rep-speed to compensate. So they becomes a real passive unit. AND the flamer don't destroy the weapon-profile.
2. Or reduce the range of their MP down from range 35 to 20. So they can scout, but they are still bad designed.

And you know how balance works? lol Ostheer Pios went through hell and now they are more useless then ever bevor. Bad in repair, worst MP in game (only Ostheer weapon-crew has worse) and brocken scouting.
And sure, if you make Cons cheaper and the fight Cons-vs-Grens is balanced, then you can 1. Change Grens to compensate OR us a useless unit and optimice them so they can support if needed.

They will not be better than soviet-pios, they will not be better than Osttruppen. But they will be better than current Pios by put their small ultra-colse advantage and but it into a more balanced weapon-profile.

It seems you don't understand what revamp or a restructuring is. A change must not be a nerf/buff over all.

Ostheer already has long ranged infantry. Pios are not meant to fill that role. To fix the problem you are facing all they need is a hold fire option and then they are fine. 3 models of a volks squad ARE better than current combat engies because combat engies have the same RNG fest Mosin that old Cons had with 1/3 less models and no redeeming abilities. CE can lose to weapon crews if they get to close and don't even deal enough damage consistently enough to even be a threat to them in the first place making them the only unit that isn't. Combat engies ironicly have no purpose in combat UNLESS upgraded with a flamethrower, which makes them admittedly decent close combat units but that's all on the thrower and not the unit holding it.

Pios are not in need of a change. I play all factions and would say that pios are probably one of the most sound units there is. They have impact if used properly and once that option fades away their other duties need to take priority anyways. They are not meant to be in the thick of it like cons are. They are support by all accounts.

But again, this is about cons. Please keep it there. Pio balance has no weight on it because they are irrelevant to it.

...

I am with a mp-decrease for Cons.

And Ostheer's Pios are still worse than soviet-pios because they quickly lose their function as batlle-unit. Buffing their MP would result in making assaul-grens obsolet (we still had that before OKW arrived). You lose versus everything in close range, because their profile becomes to work under range of 3. Do you know what that means?

Grens have such high DPS they also perform better in close-range than Pios do. So where is the reason for their MP40? It is a fault since game-released.

We have Assault-Grens for that job. Let Ostheer-Pio be something like a mix of CoH1 "Luftwaffe Ground Force" and old German-Pios. A small passive building unit.

Grens have such high DPS they also perform better in close-range than Pios do. So where is the reason for their MP40? It is a fault since game-released.

Rangers perform better at close range than riflemen do. That doesn't mean that riflemen aren't ideal at close range.

Grens perform better at close range than pioneers do. That doesn't mean that pioneers aren't ideal at close range.

If pioneers were shifted towards a more generalist weapon profile (like combat engineers and REs) then they would have their (close) damage nerfed to the level of combat engineers and REs (read: bad at all ranges instead of okay at close and really bad anywhere else).

IMO, pioneers and sappers are examples of engineer units done right. Their combat power is overall very low, but if they're used at the right range, then they approach the combat power of a mainline unit.

Rangers perform better at close range than riflemen do. That doesn't mean that riflemen aren't ideal at close range.

Grens perform better at close range than pioneers do. That doesn't mean that pioneers aren't ideal at close range.

If pioneers were shifted towards a more generalist weapon profile (like combat engineers and REs) then they would have their (close) damage nerfed to the level of combat engineers and REs (read: bad at all ranges instead of okay at close and really bad anywhere else).

IMO, pioneers and sappers are examples of engineer units done right. Their combat power is overall very low, but if they're used at the right range, then they approach the combat power of a mainline unit.

Exactly that is what I want. Because the the flamer will be a buff not a nerf to the unit.

Sappers have way better survive-ability and better weapon.

Rangers perform better at close range than riflemen do. That doesn't mean that riflemen aren't ideal at close range.

Grens perform better at close range than pioneers do. That doesn't mean that pioneers aren't ideal at close range.

If pioneers were shifted towards a more generalist weapon profile (like combat engineers and REs) then they would have their (close) damage nerfed to the level of combat engineers and REs (read: bad at all ranges instead of okay at close and really bad anywhere else).

IMO, pioneers and sappers are examples of engineer units done right. Their combat power is overall very low, but if they're used at the right range, then they approach the combat power of a mainline unit.

Sappers are far superior for only 10 manpower more.

Sappers are far superior for only 10 manpower more.

Sappers are also tech gated and are not starting unit.

Volks are also far superior to cons in every aspect but max vet durability, yet cost only 10 more.

Sappers are also tech gated and are not starting unit.

Volks are also far superior to cons in every aspect but max vet durability, yet cost only 10 more.

That is no reason why they perform that much better. Also Grens needs tech and doesn't perfom tgat much better than whan Tommies.

Ostheer Pios simply are the worst unit ingame. Give it same Squad-dps as Soviet Engineers and they are still overpriced. But they will be more usefull.

Ostheer Pios simply are the worst unit ingame. Give it same Squad-dps as Soviet Engineers and they are still overpriced. But they will be more usefull.

Go make a new topic on Ostheer Pioneers.

Anyways, Conscripts, as I have stated, should just a reduction on their upgrades that could maybe give them a boost. Communicating that these boosts don't overstack with weapon upgrades is another thing. Or stack this with teching up instead.

Regardless, I think things regarding manpower and/or numbers gives them the Soviet feel and attritional play they are designed for.

I'd rather buff cons or give a useful weapon upgrade to match other infantry increasing their cost. Every unit should have a window of oportunity to gain against other with proper skill and reading correctly the situation.
These conscript meat shield design is super boring to play, you can't rely on your core infantry to win engagements and you need to use elite doc troops or either support units all time.

Anyways, Conscripts, as I have stated, should just a reduction on their upgrades that could maybe give them a boost. Communicating that these boosts don't overstack with weapon upgrades is another thing. Or stack this with teching up instead.

Regardless, I think things regarding manpower and/or numbers gives them the Soviet feel and attritional play they are designed for.

Good thing! ;D

Still, I wanted to show that not onyl Cons have a performance problem.

We are speaking of last war-weeks until battle of Berlin etc. and back there Volkstum-units were sometimes also part of regular Volksgrenadier-battalions. They also fought with SS units.

Also Standschützenbataillone and Freikorps were part of the Volkssturm.

Edit: They wern't regular units, but sometimes they fought under the order of normal Heeresleitung.

I think you are German? Breslau wurde bis in den Mai 1945 hinein durch Volksturm und Wehrmachtverbänden verteidigt.

I'm not german.

Volkssturm ABSOLUTELY did fight with regular troops. The whole concept behind that is a numerous force that could work with actual troops as reserve unit.

Freikorps were foreign units from Axis allies and loyalist from annexed countries, they still logically need some at least physically fit men in the unit while being still untrained.

I'm not german.

Volkssturm ABSOLUTELY did fight with regular troops. The whole concept behind that is a numerous force that could work with actual troops as reserve unit.

Freikorps were foreign units from Axis allies and loyalist from annexed countries, they still logically fall under the "scraping the barrel" category.

"scraping the barrel" ^^ the Blue-Division were 15k+ spanish soldiers.

So, now we have it. Late in the war Volkssturm-Units were also part on Volksgrenadier-Units.