Conscripts need to be cheaper

Reducing upgrade cost for HEAT nade and Molotov would be just another placebo effect buff, like last year tweaks to Conscripts.

Conscript design is flawed because they have utter joke as weapons and no weapon upgrades to compensate for that.

When Gren/Volk blob comes around and just slaughters all your Cons all that received accuracy and 6 man sized squad does not matter since YOU are bleeding and enemy is not.

No idea what "attrition warfare" is supposed to mean but Conscripts clearly suck at it since they deal zero damage back due to lack of weapon upgrades and no amount of bonus RA at vet3 changes that.

-reducing too 220mp
-give them an DP-lmg upgrade for T3-T4 non-doc (blocking the ppsh upgrade)

-nerfing penals dps a little bit

I am in, seems fair and balanced.

That OKW and OKO abilities are free is a lie.

-Fire-grenade is behind 1st truck on field. (you have to build it as fast as possible, only to set it down, an unit without any extra sence = side-tech)
-Faust behind first building set. Ok, T1 is cheap, but that force you too build cheaper building first to counter clow-car. That is why OKW has cheap Püppie. Is also a hidden teching.

-Faust is behind T1 (ok, Grens are in it too, so you tech the Faust before you even build the first Gren, this is a relict of old Grens in T0, only relevant for Osttruppen)
-Rifle-Grenade is behind teching T2 (you don't need to build t2, you tech automatically, beside Soviets you have to tech passive, not simply build the tier)

You are not paying any extra resources.
Resources to just tech to med armor are comparable for tech of all factions.
OKW and Ost get free unlocks for their mainline infantry while 3 other factions need to pay additional, non tech contribution for them.
Unless you spend additional resources that DO NOT contribute to the tech, its NOT side tech, its just regular tech.

Allied upgrades are gated behind additional cost and decision that delays tech/armor.
Axis upgrades are gated exclusively by time.

Yes, ost can skip tech and no, its not meant to skip any early game tier, freebies are still freebies and there is no amount of semantics you can come up with to justify that - its not side tech if it does develop directly your main tech structure.

Its not hard concept to grasp.

Heavy RE's with Vickers and Osttruppen with LMG42 are good example of attrition units.
Conscripts are not, and giving them a DP would require a RA increase or worse vetenracy to balance them

After reading all this thread I think you guys create more problems than we have now. At current balance state I don't see any problem with 2 original factions, unlike other 3.

All faction get "free" (no tech) stuff.
Examples
USF "free" officer with "free" BAR/Bazookas

UKF "free" 25p guns and soon "free" AT grenades, free Hammer/anvil abilities.

Soviet "free" PTRS "free" AT satchel charges, free grenades in their elite call in infantry.

In addition some faction have the option to side tech and buy want they need, at the time they need if they need it.

...

The game is nearly balanced, that means that alle counters arrive nearly at best timing. That means that abilities arrive at best time. That means that cost-management is good.

Your called free-techs are part of regular tech-line.

So, not free but part of an other line.


Cons are made of beeing a little bit spongy. To simulate the war, same as Osttruppen. And after soviets sent ther units into dead with bad equipment, they sent them into dead with good equipment. And DP seems good with its dps, only too hold them in line if you took wrong commader.

Best argument of Alliis if Ostheer did not choose Elefant. lol

Wait. Again. You must calc the cost. Maybe ost and okw has no side techs...but isnt it right that the tech cost from them are more expansive? What cost it to get volks with fausts and grenades and what cost it sov to get the same?

All faction get "free" (no tech) stuff.
Examples
USF "free" officer with "free" BAR/Bazookas

UKF "free" 25p guns and soon "free" AT grenades, free Hammer/anvil abilities.

Soviet "free" PTRS "free" AT satchel charges, free grenades in their elite call in infantry.

In addition some faction have the option to side tech and buy want they need, at the time they need if they need it.

Lul, Soviet is the only faction not getting anything for free. Or should we say Para get free M1919 or zooks or Thompson or free nade, Rangers free nade and thompson, Pzgren free shreks and bundle nade, Obers free LMG, falls free nade and free pfaust etc...

The hole 'fee' thing is a bad question.

The point is that cons have a legit "EXTRA" needed to be paid. If you have to pay the same as everyone else for the squad and then another 80% on top and delay armour to get things the enemy gets included on the road to armour they are not cheaper.

The side tech MAKES SENSE if cons were manpower effecient to make up for that. Being the most ineffective infantry behind CE and having side techs doesn't.

That OKW and OKO abilities are free is a lie.

-Fire-grenade is behind 1st truck on field. (you have to build it as fast as possible, only to set it down, an unit without any extra sence = side-tech)
-Faust behind first building set. Ok, T1 is cheap, but that force you too build cheaper building first to counter clow-car. That is why OKW has cheap Püppie. Is also a hidden teching.

You're paying for teching, not for faust or grenade. You get access to units for teching price. You get flame nade and faust for free. Soviets have to pay extra for AT nade and molotov, for example.

Lul, Soviet is the only faction not getting anything for free. Or should we say Para get free M1919 or zooks or Thompson or free nade, Rangers free nade and thompson, Pzgren free shreks and bundle nade, Obers free LMG, falls free nade and free pfaust etc...

It really depends on your definition of "free".

In reality Soviet have actually a very good tech tree.

It is not linear as Ostheer/UKF.

It is not restringing as USF.

It allows early access to a very strong Shock unit in the T-70.

The tech tree is combined with commanders with plethora of doctrinal option to improve it.

Soviet are a very strong faction and there is no real need to buff them more.

If the objective is to increase the meta option one should simply start nerfing the alternatives like Penal and Guards. One should probably also nerf the VG.

Then balance would be in much better place.

Cons don't need to be cheaper. They need a non doctrinal late game upgrade and Volks need to be toned down.

The reasoning:
Against ostheer, conscript builds work fine. I've been able to beat some top 100 players using conscripts and support weapons. They respect conscripts behind cover and won't throw themselves in unless they outnumber you, in which case any infantry unit will lose.

The key weekness of conscripts builds its how the conscripts and T2 units synergize with each other. Basicly, these units lack the punch to get wipes on their own and their lethality becomes outclased by the enemy RA (maxim is rendered useless in the late game due to the yellow cover from the craters mitigating its supression and damage because they can't hit the opponent), so they just pile damage until they drop a model. This is where the 81mm mortar works wonders, because a well placed round can turn the tide of a engagement allowing the cons to rout better equiped grenadiers. Given enough time, soviet units can damage enough models to the point if a high dps unit will sweep in will cause a disaster for the ostheer player.

This strategy though, only works against ostheer because they lack the ridiculous durability and all-roundness of volksgrenadiers. They can just move in and beat your cons unless you get ppsh's and molotovs. The match becomes less of a battle of finesse, combined arms and positioning and more of a brute force competition in which the soviet tier2 is on the short end of the stick. OKW can play risky against these strats because they know most of the time their volks can get out of fight with 2 models without the risk of a wipe.

Given the costs of teching up (85 fuel to t3 and 70 fuel for the T70), the need to give your cons tools to deal with these fuckers taxes your teching in both manpower and fuel.

Giving cons a T4 tied upgrade (SVTs?) will improve their matchup against okw and shouldn't hurt ostheer much. I think something along the way of giving them marksmen SVTs that snipe off low health models like pathfinders or jaggers will synergize incredibly well with how their combined arms work.

TL;DR: Volks are too good at countering what makes Cons+tier2 strats good.

The hole 'fee' thing is a bad question.

I agree; it's a red herring that derails things.

For what it's worth, I don't think conscripts need to be cheaper, but I do think they need to be worth their cost. IMO, a ppsh-excluding weapon upgrade unlocked by tier3/4 is a nice call and I'd support it.

I'd also support bundling molotov/at-nade together for a slight price reduction overall, or just making the second upgrade come at a discount.

I disagree that they need to be better/get a non doc weapon upgrade. That ruins the unit and will simply make them another flavor of volks or a less cost effecient ostroppen depending on the upgrade. Looking at the side grade costs is certainly an option but I don't think it will be enough. Discovering a new vet 1 would be a start, spreading out their rec acc across all 3 levels of vet would be a start... There is a lot that we could do, I've suggested things in the past including a Soviet update that has small buffs for cons as support units in each tier, but ultimately cheaper I think it the best direction as it's the least Lilley to get colossally fucked up...

I agree; it's a red herring that derails things.

For what it's worth, I don't think conscripts need to be cheaper, but I do think they need to be worth their cost. IMO, a ppsh-excluding weapon upgrade unlocked by tier3/4 is a nice call and I'd support it.

I'd also support bundling molotov/at-nade together for a slight price reduction overall, or just making the second upgrade come at a discount.

Negates PPsh doctrines.

Give them SVT upgrades.

Or give them SVT tied with vet, ie at vet3 they also get 3 svt's (tone down RA bonus if implemented?)

Negates PPsh doctrines.

Give them SVT upgrades.

Or give them SVT tied with vet, ie at vet3 they also get 3 svt's (tone down RA bonus if implemented?)

I don't think it negates it, if the non-doc weapon is a long-range weapon. If we give them an SMG of some sort, then they would overlap.

It gives you a choice and you'd go PPSh if you wanted close-combat and you'd go DP if you wanted long-range/medium range.

Currently Volks can go STG or MP40 if they go with Firestorm, and those also perform different functions despite being even more similar than a DP / PPSh comparison.

I'd be fine with SVT upgrades as well, if only so it reduces the focus fire that the DP would provide (ala Grens/Obers).

Conscripts could really use some offensive options. Maybe combining AT nades and Molotovs into single upgrade and adding 3rd upgrade in T0 HQ - DP28 or SVT40s?

The weapon could have special DP28-Conscript stats to account for veterancy, avoiding the MG34 exterminators situation.

Conscripts could really use some offensive options. Maybe combining AT nades and Molotovs into single upgrade and adding 3rd upgrade in T0 HQ - DP28 or SVT40s?

The weapon could have special DP28-Conscript stats to account for veterancy, avoiding the MG34 exterminators situation.

A single dp28 wouldn't run the risk of turning anything into exterminators, there is a reason you get a pair for only 75mu.
And a dp only makes them shittier ostroppen being more expensive troops with a worse weapon. All it does is change which unit they are most comparable to and worse than. Ultimately there is no reason for a clearly inferior unit that can't function alone nor work properly as a support unit to be priced the same as units that can.