Soviets are OP

"Balance modder explained it to you earlier in the thread, penals HAVE to be as strong as they are as long as they cost 300mp and arrive latest of all infantries."

Ah...which drug did u take? penals comes clearly right in the same time like a gren hit the field. Ever heard from Obers? WHich comes mostly around 10min mark on the field? This is the latest infantery by far.

"Balance modder explained it to you earlier in the thread, penals HAVE to be as strong as they are as long as they cost 300mp and arrive latest of all infantries."

Ah...which drug did u take? penals comes clearly right in the same time like a gren hit the field. Ever heard from Obers? WHich comes mostly around 10min mark on the field? This is the latest infantery by far.

1) Maybe you should watch the timer when come first, second and third unit for both factions.
Go ahead, go into the game right now and build them, then report your findings and feel stupid for the stupid things you've said again.

2) Obers are as much mainline early game infantry as T34 is panther counter. Is there any actual point to this apple vs oranges comparison?

"Balance modder explained it to you earlier in the thread, penals HAVE to be as strong as they are as long as they cost 300mp and arrive latest of all infantries."

Ah...which drug did u take? penals comes clearly right in the same time like a gren hit the field. Ever heard from Obers? WHich comes mostly around 10min mark on the field? This is the latest infantery by far.

And Obers are really strong. What are you getting at here?

Soviets are OP? Huh.
Spam with grens mg42 or use sturmpioners to take closest building to the soviets - GG

I don't play a lot of soviets, but every time I have a teammate who spams partisans, they eventually run out of manpower and collapse, usually without killing much or doing a lot of damage.

They are bad then, last time I had this one Soviet guy who spammed partisan and pushed me all the way back, as Ostheer. This kind of cheese really shines against a faction who is reliant on its support weapons in team games.

1) Maybe you should watch the timer when come first, second and third unit for both factions.
Go ahead, go into the game right now and build them, then report your findings and feel stupid for the stupid things you've said again.

2) Obers are as much mainline early game infantry as T34 is panther counter. Is there any actual point to this apple vs oranges comparison?

U said: "strong as they are as long as they cost 300mp and arrive latest of all infantries"

the first penals doesnt much later hit the fiel than the first gren. and a 10min obers isnt that much powerfull than other inftantery...hell...ober will even get shredd by double wielding upgraded vet 3 infantery. and even vet 5 obers doesnt shredd IS, rifles and penal like a boxer fight vs a baby...so the 8min more and 120fuel invest whould explain that obers comes so late.

have more excuse?

Penals costing 300 is not written in stone.

Simply lower their cost so they are not 300 manpower infantry any more and toned them down. Add weapon upgrades if needed.

Penal's will win any 1v1 engagement early game(as they cost more), but they will also be outnumbered in the early game and gain less map presence so its a risk. Especially, when axis squads start vetting and upgrading, penals effectiveness will start falling.

The only thing i disagree with penals is having PTRS, other then that they are fine.

They are bad then, last time I had this one Soviet guy who spammed partisan and pushed me all the way back, as Ostheer. This kind of cheese really shines against a faction who is reliant on its support weapons in team games.

That's possible. The couple of times that I've seen it in 4v4's, they were trying to use partisans as mainline infantry and suffered many squad wipes. I have seen people use them really well in 2v2's but maybe it was just the difference in player.

You forgot to decrease their cost to 250 or something.

You can't have 300mp squad being weaker then 280mp squad with the same role you know.

250 would be excessive and further push people away from the already underwhelming 240mp cons. It would be like adding volks in t1- you would never ever see cons again. Their original 270 and requiring munitions for a full complement of SVTs wouldn't be unreasonable I don't think. Nothing says the HAVE to be 300mp. If them being 300mp requires them to obliterate everything on the field then that's not a good design choice. Additionally adding a munitions cost to some of their power means losing a squad and having to replace it late game when all that sweet sweet vet is gone doesn't suck the MP right out of the Soviet (not that 30mp is that HUGE of a difference but hey its something)

U said: "strong as they are as long as they cost 300mp and arrive latest of all infantries"

the first penals doesnt much later hit the fiel than the first gren. and a 10min obers isnt that much powerfull than other inftantery...hell...ober will even get shredd by double wielding upgraded vet 3 infantery. and even vet 5 obers doesnt shredd IS, rifles and penal like a boxer fight vs a baby...so the 8min more and 120fuel invest whould explain that obers comes so late.

have more excuse?

Vet 2 is where Obers begin to terminate everything so I doubt vet 5 makes them worse.

It doesnt make sense that germans are flooding the eastern front with numbers. Most military historians identify that they rarely had local numerical superiority. Soviets usually did. The Ardennes is however another issue, where unprepared and green American infantry had to face numerically superior and more heavier armed volksgrenadier units which were usually based around a core of veterans and shored-up with fresh, often underage recruits. Trying to reflect all of these angles at once is bound to affect balance.
I dont like the role penals serve and would rather see the soviets have a later game panzergrenadier equivalent. With conscripts filling the penal role. Taking ptrs as an optional upgrade that unlocks the AT satchels for them and svt upgrades that unlock the AI satchel. Then tier 2 can have panzergrenadier equivalents, perhaps with the later model ppsh, so they can have mid range effectiveness and also smoke. Or something unique.

Historic argument come in second when it comes to balance, on the other hand I would like to clarify.

It doesnt make sense that germans are flooding the eastern front with numbers. Most military historians identify that they rarely had local numerical superiority. Soviets usually did...

It is correct that Germans where usually outnumber in most fronts.
However their tactic depended is using their smaller numbers in focused attacks where they achieved numerical superiority locally.

Historic argument come in second when it comes to balance, on the other hand I would like to clarify.

It is correct that Germans where usually outnumber in most fronts.
However their tactic depended is using their smaller numbers in focused attacks where they achieved numerical superiority locally.

That capacity became non-existent after 1942.

That capacity became non-existent after 1942.

But it doesn't matter to the game. The game is flavored of history, not based off of it.

But it doesn't matter to the game. The game is flavored of history, not based off of it.

Oh, I'm well aware of this. I was just talking about how trying to make the game historically real, is what led to the balance issues.

Ie. Germans having low numbers, except for OKW because it focuses on only a few kampfgruppen that did have numerical superiority against the Americans and British for a short amount of time.

When you put this numerical superiority against soviets(who did not participate in the Ardennes offensive, obviously) It takes away the main advantage the soviets had, which I can see is where the fundamental issues would arise.

Oh, I'm well aware of this. I was just talking about how trying to make the game historically real, is what led to the balance issues.

Ie. Germans having low numbers, except for OKW because it focuses on only a few kampfgruppen that did have numerical superiority against the Americans and British for a short amount of time.

When you put this numerical superiority against soviets(who did not participate in the Ardennes offensive, obviously) It takes away the main advantage the soviets had, which I can see is where the fundamental issues would arise.

Well even against Ost Soviet don't really retain a numbers advantage, sure they have more MEN but not more squads, and if going ostroppen Ost can actually match men with more squads. It's an odd balance... Don't try and make logic or if it or you will lose your mind and end up sticking around here like the rest of us

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0Zhpc3BaKs#t=33m10s

This video shows it quite well.

The main problem is the 6 men weapon crews/squads survivability of the Soviets compared to 4 men Ost weapon crews/squads. This means that in the lategame it is extraordinarily hard to wipe Soviets. Sure, you can push off a 6 men squad... but if there is three 6 men squads and multiple 6 men weapon crews, holding the line as a Soviet is incredibly easy.

This used to be balanced when Germans had better tanks. But as also seen in this video the Elefant for example has way less utility than the ISU-152.

And since the damage nerf to the Elefants main gun the vehicle is so niche and does its job so badly (it can't fight mediums cost efficiently any longer), that there is basically no cost efficient counter to Soviets later on.

In short: You can barely push Soviet players of the field, while they have a huge arsenal to insta wipe Ostheer squads and weapon teams, coupled with better TDs and access to huge numbers of mediums. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Biggest problem with the Soviet I would say is their vet. They have some abilies that are vet locked that shouldn't be, some that are not but should be and a number that are unis pored or I'll suited to the unit.

Like:
Su76/zis barrage. Perfect abilities that SHOULD be vet abilities, the units perform well without them but the ability opens up multiple capabilities. Simple enough.
Mortar flare. Used to be a vet ability when the mortar was underwhelming and outmatched by its counterparts. Since been brought in line yet has a 6 man crew and non vet flares making it probably the best mortar for price in game.

Then you have something like the b4 who's vet ability is trash to begin with (50% chance to miss a stationary elefant) but also expensive as balls. Needs a buff but also needs to not be shit. Double whammy!
ISU-since it was brought up, could easily have just HE shells and unlock AP shells with vet to make it less omnipotent from the cuff.

Is-2. Woo cap territory! Can't wait until vet 2 so my expensive heavy tank finally gets a bit better...
Similarly the kv-2. Even in the preview... It's not a frontline unit so why would it have a bonus to infantry when it's supposed to be well behind them?

Then you have something like the Maxim. Dog. shit. It's not AWFUL with its suppressive fire (still not great but at least it requires forethought) yet it's locked behind vet 1. Flares and barrage aren't, but the ability make the MG work as an MG is.... It's Right fucked.

The thing I seem to notice a lot is that you just seem to want abilites that actually work (which is rare with soviets) to be nerfed or removed, why? because they work as intended...

Barrage arty? SOOOOO OP please nerf! How dare soviet counter by bunker spam and instapin mg42.

Did you guys stop a moment to think that may be there is a glimpse of balance here and there and said abilities although you deem they are op do actually serve a purpose?

Then you have something like the Maxim. Dog. shit. It's not AWFUL with its suppressive fire

Here, is this serious? The one thing that's bad with maxims is the suppressive rate.

ISU-since it was brought up, could easily have just HE shells and unlock AP shells with vet to make it less omnipotent from the cuff.

Joke of the day.