Soviets are OP

Except that is literally mathematically impossible, unless you don't know how cover works and were standing on the wrong side of it, making it actually much easier to hit you.

Your answer was good, but this insult sentence is why you are troll of forum topics.

T70 performs well but it's not OP. The only thing that is too strong is sight mode, which is being nerfed.

So, conscript are? let me guess, they clean up the mess after the war ends, no wait, they bring water for the real mainline infantry in the frontlines.

They are both mainline infantry.

...
Penals cost even more than most expensive mainlines - rifles and tommies, so they should be wrecking, don't you think? Plus, they cannot buy BARs, Brens, MGs, etc., so they should bear some power without them.

But I do agree that some adjustments must be done to penals. Nor nerf nor buff, but reworking. Now they are kinda simply strong infantry which u should take to win fights. But people complain penals win fights too easy, and playing cons is too hard.

In the December Patch Relic decided to move Guards and Shock troops to CP1. They made no other changes they simply lowered CP by 1. That made both units OP and Soviets dominated until February.

Imo that is clear indication that there a power limit for each time frame that should not be exceeded. Penals are badly designed exactly because they are too strong for their time frame.

Penal are equal to vanilla paratroopers in target size, number of entities and DPS up to range 20 (paras get allot better close than 20) while they are facing unit designed to fight long range. Paras are a unit from completely different time frame at CP3 and cost of 380.

Imo riflemen are on the edge of the power level for that time frame and the 300MP Penals simply do not belong there. Same but on smaller scale goes for Guards that should be either at CP3 or have their power level reduced to 330.

The fact they can not upgrade with AI weapons can easily be changed if they are toned in power level and price.

In the December Patch Relic decided to move Guards and Shock troops to CP1. They made no other changes they simply lowered CP by 1. That made both units OP and Soviets dominated until February.

Imo that is clear indication that there a power limit for each time frame that should not be exceeded. Penals are badly designed exactly because they are too strong for their time frame.

Penal are equal to vanilla paratroopers in target size, number of entities and DPS up to range 20 (paras get allot better close than 20) while they are facing unit designed to fight long range. Paras are a unit from completely different time frame at CP3 and cost of 380.

Imo riflemen are on the edge of the power level for that time frame and the 300MP Penals simply do not belong there. Same but on smaller scale goes for Guards that should be either at CP3 or have their power level reduced to 330.

The fact they can not upgrade with AI weapons can easily be changed if they are toned in power level and price.

Maybe they need toning down, but i think it's very difficult to find proper balance at their current state. I'd better vote for them being reworked and changed to a different role. Some kind of soviet osttruppen, or AT specialist, or cheap but fragile CQC unit for agressive play. I don't know which is better, but IMO giving them a completely different role will bring Cons back to the table. But that's not easy task.

Maybe they need toning down, but i think it's very difficult to find proper balance at their current state. I'd better vote for them being reworked and changed to a different role. Some kind of soviet osttruppen, or AT specialist, or cheap but fragile CQC unit for agressive play. I don't know which is better, but IMO giving them a completely different role will bring Cons back to the table. But that's not easy task.

I agree. My suggestion is that if both units are available at the same time frame they should get separate roles.
Conscripts a defensive role
Penal an offensive one

One could even try swapping them from conscripts from t1 to t0 if there was a need.

Penals are roughly comparable to rifles in terms of power. Rifles have a bit more total dps at close range while penals edge out at long range. Rifles have 1 fewer model but are also slightly harder to hit(3%). Rifles dont require tech and cost less so hit the field earlier and are easier to field in numbers. Rifles with vet scale substantially better than penals and blow them out of the water with any weapon purchases. I think in this regard penals are actually priced fairly.


I think however the issue darkarmadillo was pointing out is that upgrading a single penal squad or even 2 out of 3 or 4 with ptrs is a tiny investment to counter light vehicle play. Compare it to any other factions infantry based anti tank:

USF have to spend fuel and manpower to upgrade then get a squad home to get the weapons

OKW have to sacrifice a minesweeper and faster repairs on a rather expensive builder squad-costly to purchase a new one for the sweeper

UKF have to similarly get tech like USF with the addition of having the god awful piat as their at, or lock themselves into a specific commander and wait out at least 2 cp on to

Ostheer have to completely axe the anti infantry capability of a very expensive anti infantry squad.


Compared to the loss of 2 svt models and what-45 munitions? The other factions have to pay a premium to counter any light vehicle play with at infantry. Id suggest locking the ptrs upgrade behind tier 3 tech.

Minimal change would be to replace 2 SVTs with Mosin Nagants so they lose a bit of their early game strength. Then an SVT upgrade for 40-50ish munitions to make them full AI. Mutually exclusive with the PTRS package.

Easy change, minimal (but noticable) effect, hits right where it hurts, and imposes a strategic choice.

Minimal change would be to replace 2 SVTs with Mosin Nagants so they lose a bit of their early game strength. Then an SVT upgrade for 40-50ish munitions to make them full AI. Mutually exclusive with the PTRS package.

Easy change, hits right where it hurts, and imposes a strategic choice.

You forgot to decrease their cost to 250 or something.

You can't have 300mp squad being weaker then 280mp squad with the same role you know.

Unit cost can definitely be balanced around maximum potential performance, otherwise Obers for example would never be worth 340MP for just 4 K98s (same for Rangers or Paras etc.).

You forgot to decrease their cost to 250 or something.

You can't have 300mp squad being weaker then 280mp squad with the same role you know.

Someone forgot the additional model.. one get 6 models with the nearly same stats like a other one which get one 5 models..? Seems legit...not

Penals are roughly comparable to rifles in terms of power...

They closet to paratroopers at range up to 20, which is what is important since they are facing long range infantry and most encounters should take place above that range.

Rifles with vet scale substantially better than penals and blow them out of the water with any weapon purchases. I think in this regard penals are actually priced fairly

I am not sure if you fully appreciated their veterancy bonuses:

vet1 To The Last Man!" This ability is a passive that increases the power of the squad as they lose members. Modifiers are +4% accuracy, -2% weapon cooldown and -3% received accuracy per member lost.

vet 2 +30% accuracy -20% weapon cooldown
vet 3 +30% accuracy, -15% received accuracy, - 10 satchel charge cost

Those are some of the highest offensive bonus in a units with excellent PDS to being with.

I have not tested but my guess would be that Penal win vs riflemen with the same vet level. If in heavy cover and max range, I would again guess they would beat 1 bar riflemen at vet 3.

I do agree that their should be some tech cost for PTRS, I don't agree that the whole PTRS system works thou. If one wants PTRS in T1 one should probably redesign Guards to avoid overlap.

If one want some anti light in T1 one could always bring the M-42 into t1, if it is designed to counter light vehicles only.

Someone forgot the additional model.. one get 6 models with the nearly same stats like a other one which get one 5 models..? Seems legit...not

That's why they cost 300 and not 280 and have rec acc value of 1 instead of below 1, like rifles.

Unit cost can definitely be balanced around maximum potential performance, otherwise Obers for example would never be worth 340MP for just 4 K98s (same for Rangers or Paras etc.).

So, we're increasing cost of Grens or decreasing cost of cons now?

I said 'can', not 'should'. This isn't an 'if X then Y also' situation. Unit price is partially independent of comparisons between factions and can be based on certain performance or faction inner balance/needs. The fact that some units are priced for initial value (Grens) and others are priced for max potential (Obers) proves that. There would be no need to (significantly) lower Penals price if they were to get an SVT upgrade package as it could upset balance more than is needed.

T-70 could definitely do with a nerf to killing power on retreats, possibly even a slight nerf to killing power in general. The T-70 is just massacring infantry left and right and imo it's way good. With its sight bonusses it even has purpose into the mid/late game, and Soviets have good AI squads so there is no need for it to be this devastating.

Nerfing the T-70 a bit would also mean the Mobile Defense / Puma meta could tone down as Ostheer wouldn't be as helpless without the mobile AT. It got boring real fast seeing modef picked almost every game.

Excellent post which i support 100%. A nerf to the t-70's killing power on retreats is a must imo.

It would also be good if the mod team takes a closer look at the cap requirements for "elite call-in infantry".
OKW Falls / USF Rangers+Airborne and UK Commandos come at CP3 but Guards and Shocktroops only need 2 CP. Why?
Shocks get the deserved buff with the revamp commander patch and Guards are way too good to come earlier than the other mentioned call-ins who -btw- cant fight all type of enemies.
I think it would only be fair if the soviet call-ins would also come at 3 CP.

I said 'can', not 'should'. This isn't an 'if X then Y also' situation. Unit price is partially independent of comparisons between factions and can be based on certain performance or faction balance/needs. The fact that some units are priced for initial value (Grens) and others are priced for max potential (Obers) proves that. There would be no need to (significantly) lower Penals price if they were to get an SVT upgrade package as it could upset balance more than is needed.

Except scaling completely turns upside down vet0 balance.

If you want to scale to maximum performance, then that also means cost decreases for penals, because they stand nowhere near similar infantry like pfussies or rifles who got much more utility and abilities.

That's why vet0 cons vs grens are perfectly balanced, but the very moment lmg upgrade comes into play, its one sided combat. You have additional cost of that scaling, its a munition cost of the LMG upgrade, munition cost of BAR upgrade, of pfussi G43 upgrade.

And no, you can not ignore cost relations across the factions of units performing similar role.
Just look at medium tanks.

P4 of both axis factions have best stats and have edge over all allied stock medium tanks, should we increase their costs even further?
Obviously no, they already are more expensive.
And so are penals.

You are trying to fix what isn't broken.
By going penals you sacrifice map presence and map control, you will always be outnumbered and you will always be outcapped, that is why they need to be winning early engagements they participate in and in case of their scaling, its not better then any axis units scaling, they get in offense what they lack in defense, but they do not have any weapon upgrade which would increase their main role of AI infantry, contrary to both grens and volks and even pfussies if you want to go for them. Hell, even osttruppen get LMG upgrade now to scale even better despite them being supposedly trash, throw-away meat shield infantry.

You want to see less penals?
Come up with an idea to make cons a viable pick that wouldn't be a massive burden in late game without doctrinal aid.

You'll nerf penals in any way now and we're back to maxim + guards spam.

I do not agree that Penals are fine as they are now. They are slightly too powerful in early engagements. You're acting like my proposal to turn 2 SVTs into Mosins would completely ruin their strength while what it would really do is shave off around 11% close range and 14% long range (with Cons Mosins but this number can be anything we want), which IMO is exactly the tiny bit that they overperform with early game. It's not like 40-50 munitions is very expensive either so they'll be back in full strength in no time but at least it will give Axis some room to breath.

I do not agree that Penals are fine as they are now. They are slightly too powerful in early engagements.

Have you even read what I have written?
They HAVE to be, because axis will ALWAYS have more infantry on the field in early game due to their cost and the fact you can't just start building them within 10 seconds from game start.

If they were not able to win early engagements, they would be underpowered.

You're acting like my proposal to turn 2 SVTs into Mosins would completely ruin their strength while what it would really do is shave off around 11% close range and 14% long range (with Cons Mosins but this number can be anything we want), which IMO is exactly the tiny bit that they overperform with early game. It's not like 40-50 munitions is very expensive either so they'll be back in full strength in no time but at least it will give Axis some room to breath.

50 muni is pretty significant cost, even for soviets now that everything except moving and reinforcing costs them muni.
Initial MP would HAVE to go below that of rifles if that happened, because squad would then perform worse then rifles and axis counterparts would be too cost efficient against them.

Balance modder explained it to you earlier in the thread, penals HAVE to be as strong as they are as long as they cost 300mp and arrive latest of all infantries.

It does NOT matter that they beat all other infantries 1v1 in early game, when you will ALWAYS have more units and you will always be able to 2v1 them in early game and past early game weapon upgrades and support weapons completely close and seal that gap.

You propose something very severe while at the same time do not seem to understand why the unit is like it is.

Don't 1v1 them in early game, you don't have to as you will always have more squads then soviet using penals.

In the December Patch Relic decided to move Guards and Shock troops to CP1. They made no other changes they simply lowered CP by 1. That made both units OP and Soviets dominated until February.

Imo that is clear indication that there a power limit for each time frame that should not be exceeded. Penals are badly designed exactly because they are too strong for their time frame.

Penal are equal to vanilla paratroopers in target size, number of entities and DPS up to range 20 (paras get allot better close than 20) while they are facing unit designed to fight long range. Paras are a unit from completely different time frame at CP3 and cost of 380.

Easy fix would be that Soviets would have similar teching system as Ostheer has, that slows down when you can get Penals running around. If this was implemented the maxim spam would resurrect even more than it is now used =)

Compared to the loss of 2 svt models and what-45 munitions? The other factions have to pay a premium to counter any light vehicle play with at infantry. Id suggest locking the ptrs upgrade behind tier 3 tech.

I like that suggestion. Another could be lock it behind tech, that you have to spend some mp + fuel to open ptrs upgrade like UKF & USF has to do. Penals are now in the game totally do it all.