Soviets are OP

I want a civil discussion about this. This is my honest experience during the last months.

Soviets at the moment, especially in 2vs2 game mode are way too easy to play, way too forgiving and way too hard to counter on the Axis side.

- 6 men weapon crews are way too hard to push away
- 6 men penals are also durable and will end up in a huge wave of superior infantry
- the new sniper is deadly against 4 men squads
- the T-70 is the best light tank in the game

Countering weapon crew cancer as OKW is futile as you can't rely on the LeIG to counter anything and you lack flamethrowers. Flamenades are easily dodged.

During the early game and the early mid game Soviets have a huge advantage. And due to the Axis lategame nerfs (Elefant dmg, Vet Nerfs for OKW, StuG nerf) they are even on par with the Axis, despite having had a huge advantage earlier.

Su85 and Su76 reliably shut down any medium or heavier axis tank on maximum range. T-34/85 cancer is becoming more meta and if that is not enough you can steamroll anything with cheaper T-34/76s.

What exaclty is the disadvantage of Soviets? There is none.

I think that playing some matches as soviets and seeing how other players counter your units would quickly give you a whole list of disadvantages of the faction.

Play allies, show us how you are top 10 after 50 games using what you mentioned, prove your point.

When Zarok was whining about maxims being op, he got to top 10 using just maxims.

It's just the ridiculous amount of Anti-Infantry destruction power in every single unit that Soviets build.

Penals --> beat every single axis infantry 1v1 early game, can destroy anything they want from buildings, bunkers, OKW structures with easy one click wonder satchels. Can be upgraded to be all around unit with more normal AI firepower, but can counter every single light vehicle/tank axis can use.

ZIS gun/Su76 --> not just providing anti-tank support, but having the ability to barrage anything to oblivion.

Mortar&Maxims having 6 man squads can just take a beating all day long from axis weaker indirect fire mortar/IG's before needing to retreat. Additional bonus of can ignore sniper fire longer with 6 man squad. 120mm even if it's RNG again provide more AI destruction ability.

T70 --> Overpowered on gun AOE damage that destroys every single axis infantry and comes in to the game very fast. Later will be still infantry destroyer, but is a reliable vision provider.

The thing is that Soviets have so many extra abilities in their units that makes them from good to strong units compared to axis.

ps. Still I am not totally saying they are overpowered you just have to get used to that you are fighting always uphill battles. Maxim spam is still very strong in 2v2 or higher games.

Play allies, show us how you are top 10 after 50 games using what you mentioned, prove your point.

When Zarok was whining about maxims being op, he got to top 10 using just maxims.

The game shouldn't be balanced solely around the capabilities of ~50 players(top 10 of every faction).
Many of us have 0 capacity to ever reach that level of play.

I didn't have a problem with maxims when I was only playing Soviets, but having picked up OKW as a secondary faction, in certain maps, especially with buildings, maxims can be a problem.

Penals are the strongest (non-doc) infantry that come at the early game, although wehr can deal with this using suppression, it can be hard to deal with penals into a scout car with flamers. (in my experience)

Im not saying that soviets are OP (I feel they are not OP, just really nicely designed and paced), because it feels fairly balanced with Wehr. (Although I dont play wehr, so take this with a grain of salt) It feels like OKW may lack some tools in dislodging early aggression by maxims, especially in maps with multiple well situated buildings.

However, I don't use feuersturm doctrine as I dont own it, so perhaps this adds some tools, although not having the doctrine really gimps me in some maps, I don't like vetoing to be the solution to this. it also feels like perhaps you shouldn't have to have a doctrine just to effectively deal with maxim spam.

Thank you.

I want a civil discussion about this. This is my honest experience during the last months.

Soviets at the moment, especially in 2vs2 game mode are way too easy to play, way too forgiving and way too hard to counter on the Axis side.

- 6 men weapon crews are way too hard to push away
- 6 men penals are also durable and will end up in a huge wave of superior infantry
- the new sniper is deadly against 4 men squads
- the T-70 is the best light tank in the game

Countering weapon crew cancer as OKW is futile as you can't rely on the LeIG to counter anything and you lack flamethrowers. Flamenades are easily dodged.

During the early game and the early mid game Soviets have a huge advantage. And due to the Axis lategame nerfs (Elefant dmg, Vet Nerfs for OKW, StuG nerf) they are even on par with the Axis, despite having had a huge advantage earlier.

Su85 and Su76 reliably shut down any medium or heavier axis tank on maximum range. T-34/85 cancer is becoming more meta and if that is not enough you can steamroll anything with cheaper T-34/76s.

What exaclty is the disadvantage of Soviets? There is none.

It would be better to see some replays of games that you've lost because of OP Soviets. Better analyze on examples

yeah soviets are so damn good you only see maybe 1-2 strats that both revolve around crutch units due to horrible design and nerfs every patch

yeah soviets are so damn good you only see maybe 1-2 strats that both revolve around crutch units due to horrible design and nerfs every patch

This is it. This is how it's ALWAYS been. Don't get me wrong Soviet are the strongest they have ever been with more viable units than ever.... But they have alot of overperforming shit

This is it. This is how it's ALWAYS been. Don't get me wrong Soviet are the strongest they have ever been with more viable units than ever.... But they have alot of overperforming shit

Ya Its better now then it use to be. The old Lend Lease/ Guard Motor or bust every game use to be the only thing that made soviets relevant for god knows how long.

This is it. This is how it's ALWAYS been. Don't get me wrong Soviet are the strongest they have ever been with more viable units than ever.... But they have alot of overperforming shit

Let's take a couple of examples. Which units do u think are oveprerforming and why? Let's look closely and discuss.

The game shouldn't be balanced solely around the capabilities of ~50 players(top 10 of every faction).
Many of us have 0 capacity to ever reach that level of play.

Yes it should, because that means the game actually is balanced. if you lose, you lose because there is room for you to improve

Let's take a couple of examples. Which units do u think are oveprerforming and why? Let's look closely and discuss.

I think that penals are over performing at. Aggressive AI into defensive AT is a fairly risk free transition. You have a strong unit to beat the enemy infantry and built in defense against the usual counter to AI infantry.
Ideally I would have their price reduced and spawn with Mosins with a munitions upgrade to either SVTs or PTRS' as this slows the early game pressure (and improves Soviet map control slightly) but also makes a choice.

A bit of a cop out seeing as it's getting nerfed but the T70 vision with vet is a bit nuts given the power of information. This is already being addressed.

The su85 is certainly overperforming, in part because of its very high pen but also focused sight for the same reason as above. I feel self spotting units are not a good design decision, coupled with the high pen and accuracy makes the unit too potent.

My change for this would be to reduce pen and give it deflection damage. Keep the pen buff at vet 2. Possibly make its vet 1 a timed version of focus sight but remove the toggle.

I also feel like guards are pretty strong, but I'll admit I don't know exactly what it is about them that feels so heavy. They are elite infantry with a whack of munitions and an immobility requirement but they are pretty strong. Maybe a slightly higher reinforcement cost could be enough to balance out their power a bit. Side note- I wish assault guards were around a bit more...

The Soviet as I have said have always crutched. Their grace has always been having the stinkiest cheese. I'd like everything to be viable and work well together without simply invalidating the enemy units.

Hope that's sufficient for you... I do try to come up with potential solutions when I feel there is a problem. I don't just bitch for the sake of bitching like some on here. I also play all factions, some better than others and possibly none as well as you but take me or leave me.

sov are the actually easiest faction to play.... u havent struggle with easy wipes...has unit which can deal with all targets...hell even ur AT gun can kill blobbs and teamweapons easily.

they have the most and best troll/ cheese tactics/ units. its so much harder to lose 6model squads compared to 4 or 5 model squads...

I think that penals are over performing at. Aggressive AI into defensive AT is a fairly risk free transition. You have a strong unit to beat the enemy infantry and built in defense against the usual counter to AI infantry.
Ideally I would have their price reduced and spawn with Mosins with a munitions upgrade to either SVTs or PTRS' as this slows the early game pressure (and improves Soviet map control slightly) but also makes a choice.
...

I'd not say penals are overperforming. They are stronger than most mainlines, yes, but they cost 300MP, so they should be stronger. Also, PTRS gives them some power vs vehicles, but only vs LVs. They are bretty bad vs mediums and heavies. Plus, when they get PTRS they drop significantly at AI. AT satchel is hard to use vs carefully playing opponent. If u take T1, you need to fast rush to T3 to get some reliable AT, or backtech to T2 if your resourse control is not enough, or else you wouldn't be able to counter tanks well.

I'd say penals are not overperforming, but overused. That's mostly because using cons is much more difficult. I thought about making penals something like osttruppen, it may make soviet infantry play more variative.

T-70 had a veery long sight range, but that is being fixed, let's hee how it works.

As for SU-85, it got a time loop when switching from focused fire to normal, and vice versa. The self-spotting is effective, but punishable, cause u can't run away fast. Su 85 has a bad time against raketens, cause it can't spot them in stealth. Maybe reducing the pen for vet0 and vet1 but keeping the vet2 pen is a good idea. But soviets still need good stock tank destroyer, cause they face better armored medium tanks, panthers, tigers and especially brummbars. Zis alone would not fulfill this role, and SU-76 has been nerfed already to not being able to fight heavies good.

Guards are strong, but expensive. And they are not the ultimate unit. They win against mainlines, lose vs ranged elites. Button ability is quite expensive, and is a waste of ammo if your enemy has vehicle smoke.

Seems to me that your argument (and mine too) are all questionable anddepends on the point of view. The problem is, as I think, that there is no common understanding in the community on how should each unit perform in ideal balance.

I'd not say penals are overperforming. They are stronger than most mainlines, yes, but they cost 300MP, so they should be stronger. Also, PTRS gives them some power vs vehicles, but only vs LVs. They are bretty bad vs mediums and heavies. Plus, when they get PTRS they drop significantly at AI. AT satchel is hard to use vs carefully playing opponent. If u take T1, you need to fast rush to T3 to get some reliable AT, or backtech to T2 if your resourse control is not enough, or else you wouldn't be able to counter tanks well.

I'd say penals are not overperforming, but overused. That's mostly because using cons is much more difficult. I thought about making penals something like osttruppen, it may make soviet infantry play more variative.

T-70 had a veery long sight range, but that is being fixed, let's hee how it works.

As for SU-85, it got a time loop when switching from focused fire to normal, and vice versa. The self-spotting is effective, but punishable, cause u can't run away fast. Su 85 has a bad time against raketens, cause it can't spot them in stealth. Maybe reducing the pen for vet0 and vet1 but keeping the vet2 pen is a good idea. But soviets still need good stock tank destroyer, cause they face better armored medium tanks, panthers, tigers and especially brummbars. Zis alone would not fulfill this role, and SU-76 has been nerfed already to not being able to fight heavies good.

Guards are strong, but expensive. And they are not the ultimate unit. They win against mainlines, lose vs ranged elites. Button ability is quite expensive, and is a waste of ammo if your enemy has vehicle smoke.

Seems to me that your argument (and mine too) are all questionable anddepends on the point of view. The problem is, as I think, that there is no common understanding in the community on how should each unit perform in ideal balance.

a 300mp unit should be strong, but i feel the issue is timing for that strength. imagine if obers were a t0 unit for example.my suggestion of making them buy their svts would allow for a couple of things:
it tones them down for starts. its a very powerful squad to contend with from the word go, again they should be for 300mp, but they are very difficult to zone as they will dominate any 1v1 they encounter at any range (except sturms up close of course)
by tying their AI to an upgrade you time gate it that way. still strong, but slightly delayed at importantly at the expensive of something.
next, by making it an upgrade that locks out the PTRS for counter play its easy to tell how much AT they have on the field VS dominating infantry combat and then having a counter to lights as needed.
PTRS certainly lowers their AI, but AFTER they have been mopping the floor with you in infantry combat, so the point is kinda moot. they can now fend off lights and their vet still makes them pretty good at AI despite being 2 rifles down.
another important thing the upgrade would do is give the soviet a MUCH needed muni sink, this would take the pressure off cons getting one. people like upgrades, soviet lack ANY. win win?

SU85
i dont want the su85 to stop being the go to for enemy heavies, i want it to stop invalidating them. when the old su85 had the same pen as the zis i was at the forefront of saying it wasnt enough. it either (imo) needed the pen buff OR the vet 2 (massive...) 30% more pen. it got both.
deflection damage and reduced pen would make it consistent at dealing damage but also make it so armour values mean something for the enemy too. ATM is matters little if its an ost or okw p4, panther or tiger. the su85 will give results far more often than not making the axis tanks somewhat underwhelming given the premiums paid.

guards,again, not sure what it is about them and tbh it could just be the current climate of penals into guards and a whole lot of firepower afforded to that mixture that feels off who knows

... The self-spotting is effective, but punishable, cause u can't run away fast. Su 85 has a bad time against raketens, cause it can't spot them in stealth...

That is simply incorrect, SU-85 as other Soviet units has access to "tracking" that reveal enemy units in the mini map up to range 70. SU-85 can truck RW in the mini map even if it can not "see" them. In addition the small target size makes RW miss allot.

That is simply incorrect, SU-85 as other Soviet units has access to "tracking" that reveal enemy units in the mini map up to range 70. SU-85 can truck RW in the mini map even if it can not "see" them. In addition the small target size makes RW miss allot.

I meant focused sight ability. Tracking, if i'm correct is timed ability with muni cost of 30, or like that.
As i understood from armadillo's post he talks about focused sight, not about tracking.

On raketens vs SU85, i'll do some tests in cheat mode and see how would they perform.

If SU-85 keeps vet2-3 pen bonus but will have a less vet0-vet1 pen i think it would be ok.

cons is too weak and guard is too strong

nowadays all soviet players just spam guard and win

plz nerf guardm relic

6man->5man/ delete free PTRS and make them spend some munition(60)

instead buff target size 0.97->0.95


cons - can unlock 3 svt-40 upgrade(45muni) when Mechanized Armor Kampaneya(tier 4) is builded
it will get synergy with ppsh-41 upgrade

This is it. This is how it's ALWAYS been. Don't get me wrong Soviet are the strongest they have ever been with more viable units than ever.... But they have alot of overperforming shit

Nah, old metas had SU with more stronger BS.

That been said, not sure what units you could adjust besides Penals.