USF Tech Changes Mod Changelog

Include.
Not specifically mentioned it.
You know, reread it agains and you will notice there is a plural there.
"other factions" as in, more then one specifically nitpicked.

Undeniable you are once more wrong:
Ostheer:
BP 1--100/40
BP 2--200/90
T1----80/10
T2----220/20
T3----140/15
PzIV--350/120

Total for first medium 1070/295


UKF
Grenade--100/10
Weapons--150/15
PCP------180/30
CCP------280/115
Cromwell-340/110

Total for first medium 1050/280

Actually it is cheaper to get a medium with UKF still getting grenades and weapons (and snares with the latest patch).

Pls actually to your math before making "undeniable" claims, it will save all allot of time.

Weapon upgrades and grenades do not come for "free" for Ostheer then need BP 1 that has 100/40 cost.

Did I miss something, or are you now required to build the T2 building as OST in order to build T3?

We could go back and forth with this specific cherry picked example all day. The fact remains that even if you skip buildings as OST, you still get all of your side tech.

For the purpose of this thread, we'll focus on USF. Can you tell me what the fuel cost and timing would be for a Sherman to come out if you were to unlock all side tech and both CPT and LT? How useful is a Sherman at that point in the game?

The point of my original post is to point out that two of the Allied factions are underperforming due to a lack of easy access to basic gameplay mechanics that are absolutely necessary. The stats from the GCS2 tournament go a long way to prove this. My question is why?

Your answer seems to be "because OST have it worse." They simply do not.

Is there any reason other than keeping tech costs comparable that basic gameplay mechanics are gated behind expensive tech? It still seems that USF tech is more expensive than others, otherwise you would have used them as your example...especially considering that this is a thread about the USF.

...
We could go back and forth with this specific cherry picked example all day.
... Can you tell me what the fuel cost and timing would be for a Sherman to come out if you were to unlock all side tech and both CPT and LT? How useful is a Sherman at that point in the game?
...

No I can not since you are accusing me of cherry picking, you can not insult me and then ask for my help. Being polite on the other hand will take allot further.

So now I suggest you stop being lazy, do your own math and draw your own conclusions.

My question is why?

Your answer seems to be "because OST have it worse." They simply do not.

I did respond to your question.

...
Simply because each faction has currently its own design.

Why does Ostheer do not get a light tank like the Stuart?
"Simply because each faction has currently its own design."

Why does Ostheer do not have 5 men stock squads?
"Simply because each faction has currently its own design."

Why does Ostheer do not have weapons rack?
"Simply because each faction has currently its own design."

Your analysis is simply flawed because it does not take into account the difference between faction design.

It's clear case of the "grass is greener on the other side of the fence" approach, where you only see that advantage of what the other side has without any of the drawbacks.

If in your opinion side tech is draw back, you should be suggesting that Osther BP become side tech unlocking the weapons and grenades, and structures come with free squads.

No I can not since you are accusing me of cherry picking, you can not insult me and then ask for my help. Being polite on the other hand will take allot further.

So now I suggest you stop being lazy, do your own math and draw your own conclusions.

I did respond to your question.

Why does Ostheer do not get a light tank like the Stuart?
"Simply because each faction has currently its own design."

Why does Ostheer do not have 5 men stock squads?
"Simply because each faction has currently its own design."

Why does Ostheer do not have weapons rack?
"Simply because each faction has currently its own design."

Your analysis is simply flawed because it does not take into account the difference between faction design.

It's clear case of the "grass is greener on the other side of the fence" approach, where you only see that advantage of what the other side has without any of the drawbacks.

If in your opinion side tech is draw back, you should be suggesting that Osther BP become side tech unlocking the weapons and grenades, and structures come with free squads.

First off, you are cherry picking. You chose another faction that has a famously fast medium tank, but that medium tank isn't anywhere near as good as the PZ4.

Second, my question about USF tech costs was rhetorical because we both know that the cost is higher and the timing is slower. "Simply because of it's own design?" Unique design isn't the problem, it's whether or not that design is inherently under or over powered.

Stats show that currently USF's faction design is underpowered. The changes within this patch aim to bring them up to par with the currently stronger OST/OKW/SOV. That's not up for debate, it's in the original post, and it's backed by stats.

First off, you are cherry picking. You chose another faction that has a famously fast medium tank, but that medium tank isn't anywhere near as good as the PZ4.

Personal accusation do not promote the debate, pls stop them. I never used the time PzIV as an argument for the USF tech. I responding to claim by a specific individual and I proven it to be false and misleading.

Second, my question about USF tech costs was rhetorical because we both know that the cost is higher and the timing is slower.

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This update moves everything in the right direction, but several questions remain.

Why does every Allied faction have to pay for grenades where Axis get them for free with tech?
Why are the means by which the USF and UKF acquire vehicle snares so punitive?

These are genuine questions, not rhetorical questions meant to incite inflammatory comments.

PLS decide are you question rhetorical or not?
PlS if you do not mean to incite inflammatory comments stop making ones like accusing me of cherry picking.

I don't know what you referring to as USF tech cost. You have to be more specific. In the current live tech tree teching is not slower.
A USF player can choose to get grenades before an Ostheer player if he wants to.
A USF player can choose have access to a BAR before an Ostheer player can have access to an LMG
A USF player can choose to have access to Bazooka before an Ostheer player can have access to shreck

What the current USF tech does is give the choice of what and when to unlock the tech you want, if you want to unlock everything then yes will pay more in tech.

"Simply because of it's own design?" Unique design isn't the problem, it's whether or not that design is inherently under or over powered.

No unique design is not the problem, the fact remains that USF had higher win rates for years using the same tech design.

Stats show that currently USF's faction design is underpowered. The changes within this patch aim to bring them up to par with the currently stronger OST/OKW/SOV. That's not up for debate, it's in the original post, and it's backed by stats.

Maybe one should be looking to bring OST/OKW/SOV, who where buffed, down to USF level since UKF will remain UP and will have to go thru another of this factions redesigns. Or one should do UKF redesigning at same time and be done with it.

Returning OST/OKW/SOV to lower power level, should be allot easier since they have been there and simple reverses in some of the buffs they have received should do the trick.

Or one could take a break from all these faction redesigns and fix long lasting issues that could greatly improve balance like vet abilities, vet bonuses and so on...

I don't know what you referring to as USF tech cost. You have to be more specific. In the current live tech tree teching is not slower.
A USF player can choose to get grenades before an Ostheer player if he wants to.
A USF player can choose have access to a BAR before an Ostheer player can have access to an LMG
A USF player can choose to have access to Bazooka before an Ostheer player can have access to shreck

What the current USF tech does is give the choice of what and when to unlock the tech you want, if you want to unlock everything then yes will pay more in tech.

Unlocking grenades or weapon racks before your 1st Officer, your "free squad", is pretty much handling the game to the opponent with the current USF tech system, specially going for Grenades.

Backteching is also a pain and often not even an option in most circumstances.

Unlocking grenades or weapon racks before your 1st Officer, your "free squad", is pretty much handling the game to the opponent with the current USF tech system, specially going for Grenades.

Backteching is also a pain and often not even an option in most circumstances.

Maybe but that does not make USF teching slower, which was claim I was responding to.

Changes look very good to me.

Not sure why people complain. These changes don´t really go into the "make every faction the same" direction. They just make USF a better faction by making basic units easier to field. (MG and AT-gun)

....because some people don't want USF any more competitive than it is right now. I don't think there are a lot negative comments about the changes by people who show their playercard and play USF.

The tech changes will help a lot more in 1's and 2's than 3's and 4's. It still seems like USF needs non-doctrinal access to either an Easy 8 or Pershing.

PLS decide are you question rhetorical or not?
PlS if you do not mean to incite inflammatory comments stop making ones like accusing me of cherry picking.

I don't know what you referring to as USF tech cost. You have to be more specific. In the current live tech tree teching is not slower.
A USF player can choose to get grenades before an Ostheer player if he wants to.
A USF player can choose have access to a BAR before an Ostheer player can have access to an LMG
A USF player can choose to have access to Bazooka before an Ostheer player can have access to shreck

What the current USF tech does is give the choice of what and when to unlock the tech you want, if you want to unlock everything then yes will pay more in tech.


No unique design is not the problem, the fact remains that USF had higher win rates for years using the same tech design.


Maybe one should be looking to bring OST/OKW/SOV, who where buffed, down to USF level since UKF will remain UP and will have to go thru another of this factions redesigns. Or one should do UKF redesigning at same time and be done with it.

Returning OST/OKW/SOV to lower power level, should be allot easier since they have been there and simple reverses in some of the buffs they have received should do the trick.

Or one could take a break from all these faction redesigns and fix long lasting issues that could greatly improve balance like vet abilities, vet bonuses and so on...

It IS slower because you cannot possibly afford to have all of your tech including grenades, advanced weapons, and healing by the same time that an OST player can. As soon as an OST player finishes T1 tech they've got access to all of those things, the only one that is any additional cost is healing.

Even if you could manage to have all of those things at the same timing as OST, as Newbie said you couldn't possibly hope to be competitve at that point because all of the rest of your tech would be substantially delayed.

My argument is that certain basic functions such as team weapons are not really optional. It's not a matter of wanting to unlock all of the tech, it's a matter of some of that tech (team weapons) is necessary to be competitive, and it's currently locked behind prohibitively expensive tech for the USF specifically.

USF had higher win rates in the past because certain abilities and units were overpowered enough to carry them through the game. Do you really want to go back to the days of things like double 1919 LMG suppressing? Simply nerfing OST/OKW/SOV doesn't address the most basic problem that USF has had since day 1. This patch would go a really long way to addressing the problem.

Maybe the question I should be asking is why you are so afraid of the USF having easy access to all of their team weapons? Because that's all this change would really do.

For clarity's sake and to provide feedback to the people behind this patch, there are two changes that I think may still be necessary either with this patch or in a future patch. Free grenade tech for USF that becomes active after one officer is produced. This includes anti-tank rifle grenades for Riflemen. I would at least like to see that go to the mod for testing.

Another possibility would be allowing the grenade tech (either paid or free) to also unlock anti-tank rifle grenades for Riflemen regardless of whether or not they're Vet 1. I think the UKF should also get something similar.

Other than that I'm really excited to see these changes go live.

It IS slower because you cannot possibly afford to have all of your tech including grenades, advanced weapons, and healing by the same time that an OST player can. As soon as an OST player finishes T1 tech they've got access to all of those things, the only one that is any additional cost is healing.
...

That is incorrect, play Ostheer and you will see. T1 only give access to units and faust. Grenades and lmgs come with battle phase 1.

As USF you should there is no point in unlocking everything including grenades and weapons simply because you do not have the munition to both upgrade weapons and use grenades.

Finally riflemen will beat grenadiers if both do not have weapons.

It is about choosing what you are going to use not unlocking everything.

That is incorrect, play Ostheer and you will see. T1 only give access to units and faust. Grenades and lmgs come with battle phase 1.

As USF you should there is no point in unlocking everything including grenades and weapons simply because you do not have the munition to both upgrade weapons and use grenades.

Finally riflemen will beat grenadiers if both do not have weapons.

It is about choosing what you are going to use not unlocking everything.

Which was wise and balance some years ago but not anymore.

I wonder if this is going to hit live servers at the same time as the commander revamp.

Imagine this boy, USF relevant again!

Can't wait to bring the hurt back to the OKW in the early game.

I wonder if this is going to hit live servers at the same time as the commander revamp.

Imagine this boy, USF relevant again!

Can't wait to bring the hurt back to the OKW in the early game.

Yeah me too usf finnaly op gg wp okw players.
And double sexton commander in 4vs4 damn son

People should be happy when the game is balanced not when their favorite faction is OP...

People should be happy when the game is balanced not when their favorite faction is OP...

2nd most underpowered faction in game is getting much needed love and you still complain.

2nd most underpowered faction in game is getting much needed love and you still complain.

Actually you are the only that complain about everything allied being up and everything Axis being OP.
Now pls stop filling feedback thread with what I do or do no do.

Have a nice day.

i wonder why Vipper always dont want Alies buff/changing ?
only thing i dont like much is Capt/lieu teching time is too much for them.
Rush nade + go Lieu/Capt is really good tactic for now.
Also, M10 rush is too good for this lol

i wonder why Vipper always dont want Alies buff/changing ?
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I wonder why I am becoming the Topic of this thread.

But let me explain my point of view, and it has nothing to do with allies being buffed or not.

Soviets got buffed, OKW got redesigned. Then Ostheer had to be buffed to keep and now USF(/UKF) will be redesigned.

One could continue this circle of buff and redesigns increasing the Power level of each faction until all faction are similar and the game becomes arcade. Even currently there are units that negate game mechanism with small arm having accuracy over 100% and TDs with penetration and accuracy above 100%.

Or one can, take a step back reduced the Power level of faction and fix long lasting issues that have not been touched in years and better design each unit and each commander with a specific role and tools to fulfill that role, taking into account the unique design of each faction.

Point of the USF Redesign for those who thinking it's meant to create a power imbalance is to add more diversity to the USF forces and give them more options, while still having their own unique structure.

-Tier 1/1.5 and 2/2.5 allows USF to have easier back-teching and more choice early on; no other faction has this and the British system is still different as more of an individual unit choice and a tech/upgrade route for the army.

-You're not stuck needing 3 Riflemen every game outside strange strategies as officers can take the role of one rifle squad, though this does mean slower and less aggressive starts for team weapons.

-This also means USF is not punished for doctrines with elite infantry as you don't have a glutton of Riflemen; Riflemen need to remain strong with upgrades and as a unit for they have to carry USF in doctrines without elite infantry or Axis core elite infantry would stomp on the faction at a certain point. Yet, since you've invested so much into Riflemen as a necessity for early game, particularly vs OKW, fitting in more elites is difficult, especially since you take the choice of weakening your 4-5 core squads with delayed weapon racks due to lack of munitions.

-It also means USF can go a very infantry heavy strategy revolving around team weapons, at an increased cost, when going towards Major rather than you being locked to one officer and having a very major weakness in your arsenal that few other factions have with not enough reward to compensate. Pershing stall is another issue, but that can be associated with many things that can call-in vehicles.

-Unit placement for the Stuart and AA HT were meant to give each tier its own set of tools and play styles. LT is focused on offense, Captain on defense. It makes no sense why one building needs two suppression based units where Captain can't defend its own team weapons from being overrun by infantry.

-On tests, Ostheer, might have the most issues but we're keeping an eye on timings.

People should be happy when the game is balanced not when their favorite faction is OP...

Calm down i was kidding im just happy that usf will be finally balanced u dont like these changes ?