Volks are disgustingly good, need toning down.

No other army has such a strong starting unit. No other faction has a capping vehicle that does not need a squad or cost fuel. No other faction has 3 inf units that can fight in their line up non doc. No other faction has non doc camoed t0 at gun wich can retreat. No other faction has a main line inf squad that has such utility combined with such fighting power for very little cost. No other faction has a non doc super heavy.
Dont go victim mode on okw it has plenty of strenghts. Volks punch way above their price range right now.

Guards op? Guards are doctrinal cost a lot more, need to stop to do any damage. Drop weapons like crazy. Clear weaknesses to blalance them out wich volks do not have.

If a t70 is raping your med/heavy tank its on you. Okw has plenty at options use them. The luchs also forces a similar response from the allies.

Most OP squad dollar for dollar is Guard rifles, end thread. Volks are no where near OP. Maybe when you go calling something overpowered you should consider the rest of the faction traits, such as having a tank destroyer with less penetration than their medium tank, or an MG they can't get out until early mid game that does jack anyway, or no mortar, no sniper, no caches, no T70 that can run around raping everything and forcing hard counter play. Get real, OKW is one of the weaker factions in the game all in all.

so weak it had the highest WR in GCS overall and even with soviets pretty much. very bad, how can anyone play it I wonder

Dollar for dollar guards are better? More like you pay ~50% more and get a better squad. Dollar for dollar I TREMBLE to see what relic would make volks look like at 360mp seeing as they ALREADY have 5 men, a snare, a flame nade, can build sandbags, can melt down team weapons, get a weapon upgrade with no drawbacks and guaranteed heavy support and self heal with vet. Dollar for dollar isn't even accurate. Guards pay more for their weapon upgrade that after require them to be stationary for 4/6 weapons to even fire. Dollar for dollar they have a more expensive arguably less effective snare (that REQUIRES an upgrade to unlock, one that is 25% more expensive AND can be dropped unlike volks upgrade)

And boo fucking Hoi the su85 has more pen than the jp4 (which actually has MORE pen than a p4... And 50% more range) the OKW don't have a single non light vehicle in the GAME with less than 200 armour, they actually have 4 STOCK tanks with over 200 (230 iirc...) so the higher pen is actually necessary...
And boo hoo the mg34 isn't the best MG in the game. It's the cheapest and you CAN'T progress without being given access to it.

But going back to "dollar for dollar" I guess we could bring in cons. Closest thing to dollar for dollar we are going to get. For your dollar cons get +1 man and sprint. And they also have 35fu and ~200mp in side grades to unlock what volks have for free. So "dollar for dollar" cons should be better fighters given the additional investments (or dollars) required to make them comparable. Dollar for dollar volks are hands down the best infantry in the game because for every dollar THEY spend everyone else has to spend more to get a similar effect. More fuel. More manpower. more munitions. More time teching. More time not on the front getting what upgrades they need. More time waiting for support to clear the garrison. More time waiting for RE to build the green cover. More more more more.

Dollar for dollar means paying the same and getting more, when yuu have to compare a doctrinal, elite squad that's half again more expensive instead of ANY of the core units of remotely comparable price points I think you understand that "dollar for dollar" doesn't apply to the unit you are claiming is fine

so weak it had the highest WR in GCS overall and even with soviets pretty much. very bad, how can anyone play it I wonder

Show Spoiler
okw had the "highest WR" vs usf or ukf (50 matches in the best case).
okw vs soviets they were even, 47%.
You are spreading fake news
And you cant tell, because the sample is quite small, you need bigger samples to find accurately the standart deviation. You can get WR of 47% - 81% with that sample. Did the math.
Still you are enclosed in competitive matches and high skill. Not everyone plays like that.
In any case, USF or UKF would need either buffs or revamps. But your argument is invalid OKM is not the best faction based on GCS2 WR

Edit: The only conclusion you can ever achieve is, OKM had (maybe still has) good early power that translates into early/midgame domination. UKF and USF may suffer a lot from that and thats why you end with suchs WR. Still no : OKM OP : tag needed, you are just seeing what OKM does best, early game domination.

Also, the current 2v2 AC tourney so far showed completely different stats in favor of the Allies in team games. https://www.coh2.org/topic/83846/ac-2v2-tournament-statistics

Also, the current 2v2 AC tourney so far showed completely different stats in favor of the Allies in team games. https://www.coh2.org/topic/83846/ac-2v2-tournament-statistics

UKF is surprisingly quite good in 2v2+ this likely has to do with having a Sov or USF teammate helps them tremendously in the early game. UKF also is great in support of both SOV and USF which explains their prevalence in the 2v2 tourney.

Still USF got played very low amounts in the 2v2, USF only got played in 18 games out of 64 games which is pretty bad.

I feel like the faction ranking for 1v1 is UKF<USF<OST<SOV=OST while for 2v2 is more like USF<UKF<OKW<OST=SOV while the UKF + SOV and OKW + OST are the two best team set ups.

Volks punch way above their price range right now.

A lot of people have said this, but I struggle to see how. Volks are 250, rifles are 280, IS are 280, cons are 240, penals are 300.

Vanilla volks vs vanilla rifles are about equal at max range, and strongly favor rifles at close range. The margin to which rifles are favored probably justifies the extra 30 squad cost and 3 reinforce cost. 1 bar rifles beats stg volks (280/60 vs 250/60). Rifles also have stronger vet.

Vanilla IS vs vanilla volks favors volks at mid and close with or without cover, slightly favors volks max without cover, and favors IS max with cover. 5-man IS beat stg volks everywhere except close, which only gets better for IS when they get brens. Again, the extra cost for IS makes sense to me considering how much better their scaling is.

Cons are utility and super durable with vet. They're also clearly the worst mainline infantry when it comes to combat. Volks are better than them in combat, which doesn't say much considering every other squad is too. If they have ppshs though, they're probably better than volks in general.

Penals are more or less 6 man volks when it comes to combat power. Their insane vet means they don't have to spend munitions and still scale well.

I just don't see in which comparison volks punch above their weight (besides non-ppsh-doc cons, which again doesn't say much).

Show Spoiler

okw had the "highest WR" vs usf or ukf (50 matches in the best case).
okw vs soviets they were even, 47%.
You are spreading fake news
And you cant tell, because the sample is quite small, you need bigger samples to find accurately the standart deviation. You can get WR of 47% - 81% with that sample. Did the math.
Still you are enclosed in competitive matches and high skill. Not everyone plays like that.
In any case, USF or UKF would need either buffs or revamps. But your argument is invalid OKM is not the best faction based on GCS2 WR

Edit: The only conclusion you can ever achieve is, OKM had (maybe still has) good early power that translates into early/midgame domination. UKF and USF may suffer a lot from that and thats why you end with suchs WR. Still no : OKM OP : tag needed, you are just seeing what OKM does best, early game domination.

Highest winrate against UKF and USF and went pretty much "even" with soviets, so overall it had the highest winrate because Soviets had around the same against ostheer aswell. And UKF and USF winrates were garbage. That being after the main in GCS 2

Penals arent expansive like some members here want to tell us.Yes, they have a higher pricetag. But their reinforce cost per model is totally cheap. 2-3 penals are so much cancer ...not one other infntery squad can run around the battlefield and make so much pressure. hey there is forwards building...or a cache. lets satchel it with cheap 45muni. or lets flank a bunker: dead. or lets kill teamweapons and recrew it..and have 3 men left.

2-3 volks? no problem!

combine them with sniper and/ or a at gun..and ur enemy has so much trouble to deal with this. because the AT gun can not only fight armor..no it kills much better teamweopans and enemy squads than some other dedicated indirect fire units.

Penals arent expansive like some members here want to tell us.

Most expensive stock mainline infantry "are not expensive".
You literally are arguing numerical facts.
That is a level of denial scientists believed can't exist.

Yes, they have a higher pricetag. But their reinforce cost per model is totally cheap. 2-3 penals are so much cancer

How many years are we repeating to you drones that it is not how reinforcement costs work?
Its balanced on SQUAD basis.
And reinforcing penals from 1 man to full is adequately expensive to their price, just like all other allied infantry, because for "reasons" all the axis infantry except volks and grens needs to have a discount on reinforcement.

...not one other infntery squad can run around the battlefield and make so much pressure. hey there is forwards building...or a cache. lets satchel it with cheap 45muni. or lets flank a bunker: dead. or lets kill teamweapons and recrew it..and have 3 men left.

Have you ever seen volksgrenadiers?
Or Panzerfussiliers?

If losing a bunker is such an issue for you, stop spamming them, they need to be counterable by T1 soviets as well.
And can you stop pretending that penals do not have an actual grenade?
Satchel is useless in infantry combat, unless you go AFK when fight starts.

2-3 volks? no problem!

Except, there never are 2-3, its always 4-5 due to how cheap, strong and excellently scaling they are.

combine them with sniper and/ or a at gun..and ur enemy has so much trouble to deal with this. because the AT gun can not only fight armor..no it kills much better teamweopans and enemy squads than some other dedicated indirect fire units.

You are comparing an investment of 500-750 mp to investment of well over 1500 mp.
Maybe you should use that additional 750mp you just floated and get more units on field yourself?
You know, like Luchs or AAHT, which can be countered pretty much only by T-70 if you do not have 80 year old grandpa micro.
Do you see how retardedly stupid your point is?
Stop doing meth.

A lot of people have said this, but I struggle to see how. Volks are 250, rifles are 280, IS are 280, cons are 240, penals are 300.


I just don't see in which comparison volks punch above their weight (besides non-ppsh-doc cons, which again doesn't say much).

Volks comes with sandbag and OKW don't need to pay to unlock grenade. I think volks are simply too good early game before BARs and STGs not because they are equal to riflemen but because they have more tools to mitigate damage and deal damage.
Also STGs are usually available before BARs and much easier to access since you don't need to retreat to equip them.
Last, Volks pushing above their weight is to be looked at in conjunction with Sturmpioneer, here again also during the early game.

In synthesis, this feeling is more about how OKW can easily snowball vs USF, if this happens then Volks end being fully equiped with STGs and flamnade and keeping territory behind sandbags while USF has hard time to equip BARs, forget about grenade, and face the inevitable Luch that's participate to the bleed. OKW access HMG to lock territory and a raketen to cover the Luch while the USF player has to decide which one he wants more.

Volks is imo more an image of the OKW/USF matchup, the tree that hide the forest because more visible, more than the most imbalance point.

At the end, we're going back to what Relic want to do with USF. USF is still design as an early aggressive faction (5men squad) with tools for that and lack of tools to do anything else (no sandbag+no backcapping unit+no grenades+no mines). But at the same time in reality USF is not the aggressive faction vs OKW but still lack the defensive tools while OKW get the offensive tools (ST+5men volks squad+flamnade), caping (Kubel) tools and defensive tools (Sandbag+mines).

A lot of people have said this, but I struggle to see how. Volks are 250, rifles are 280, IS are 280, cons are 240, penals are 300.

Vanilla volks vs vanilla rifles are about equal at max range, and strongly favor rifles at close range. The margin to which rifles are favored probably justifies the extra 30 squad cost and 3 reinforce cost. 1 bar rifles beats stg volks (280/60 vs 250/60). Rifles also have stronger vet.

Vanilla IS vs vanilla volks favors volks at mid and close with or without cover, slightly favors volks max without cover, and favors IS max with cover. 5-man IS beat stg volks everywhere except close, which only gets better for IS when they get brens. Again, the extra cost for IS makes sense to me considering how much better their scaling is.

Cons are utility and super durable with vet. They're also clearly the worst mainline infantry when it comes to combat. Volks are better than them in combat, which doesn't say much considering every other squad is too. If they have ppshs though, they're probably better than volks in general.

Penals are more or less 6 man volks when it comes to combat power. Their insane vet means they don't have to spend munitions and still scale well.

I just don't see in which comparison volks punch above their weight (besides non-ppsh-doc cons, which again doesn't say much).

Volks have simaler utitily options to cons, they have better fighting potential then cons esp when the stg,s come out. The stg is always available and is only 60 muni for a buff at all ranges. Basicly invalidating cons from that moment on if they dont have ppsh. Ppsh is doctrinal and cons laughable long range dps gets even worse because of it.
Volks can self heal at vet 3. The vet3 super durability for cons is neccesary to even give them a chance late game.

Penals are more expensive and their at option hurts their ai quite a bit. They have no ai upgrade hence their good vet.

There is basicly no down sides going volks for okw. They have none to exploit to gain an advantidge vs okw. They outspam outlast and in the midgame outdps most if not all other main lines.

Highest winrate against UKF and USF and went pretty much "even" with soviets, so overall it had the highest winrate because Soviets had around the same against ostheer aswell. And UKF and USF winrates were garbage. That being after the main in GCS 2
...

Thats not how statistics work.
If you cant argument properly then do not repeat blindly the same things to make sense of them. As i said earlier, you do NOT know the standart deviation of the sample (games played), you could end with 47% WR for OKM at worst (using 99% certainty), you just need more information.
Those WR were merely calculated using a simple mean, and its good enough for simpler things, but its FAR from "The real WR" in order to extrapolate to the balance state.

Most expensive stock mainline infantry "are not expensive".
You literally are arguing numerical facts.
That is a level of denial scientists believed can't exist.



How many years are we repeating to you drones that it is not how reinforcement costs work?
Its balanced on SQUAD basis.
And reinforcing penals from 1 man to full is adequately expensive to their price, just like all other allied infantry, because for "reasons" all the axis infantry except volks and grens needs to have a discount on reinforcement.



Have you ever seen volksgrenadiers?
Or Panzerfussiliers?

If losing a bunker is such an issue for you, stop spamming them, they need to be counterable by T1 soviets as well.
And can you stop pretending that penals do not have an actual grenade?
Satchel is useless in infantry combat, unless you go AFK when fight starts.



Except, there never are 2-3, its always 4-5 due to how cheap, strong and excellently scaling they are.


You are comparing an investment of 500-750 mp to investment of well over 1500 mp.
Maybe you should use that additional 750mp you just floated and get more units on field yourself?
You know, like Luchs or AAHT, which can be countered pretty much only by T-70 if you do not have 80 year old grandpa micro.
Do you see how retardedly stupid your point is?
Stop doing meth.

You didnt look the last 2 torunements, right? Or maybe u look them..but didnt realize how versatile and NOT USELESS stachels was. They wiped a lot.

OR do u wanna tell us that the tournements-player are brain afk player? When will we see your next game? This yeahr? When will we see that you show us your skill, when battling me?

You are a forum troll which dont play this game active. Not more. You should prove your skill. Say when u ready.

Volks have simaler utitily options to cons, they have better fighting potential then cons esp when the stg,s come out. The stg is always available and is only 60 muni for a buff at all ranges. Basicly invalidating cons from that moment on if they dont have ppsh. Ppsh is doctrinal and cons laughable long range dps gets even worse because of it.
Volks can self heal at vet 3. The vet3 super durability for cons is neccesary to even give them a chance late game.

Penals are more expensive and their at option hurts their ai quite a bit. They have no ai upgrade hence their good vet.

There is basicly no down sides going volks for okw. They have none to exploit to gain an advantidge vs okw. They outspam outlast and in the midgame outdps most if not all other main lines.

Agree with most here but a few minor ammendments-the old token things of cons utility are actually done BETTER on volks. They can clear garrisons with beyond ease because they are quicker and can throw further. Their sand bags are also superior as they can be clipped into things.

Also volks self heal at vet 5 now not vet 3.

You are a forum troll which dont play this game active. Not more. You should prove your skill. Say when u ready.

Which, again, has absolutely nothing to do with volks "punching above their weight."

They're not too cost effective, which is what the term implies.

My issue, as you alluded to, is that people are making OKW issues seem like volks issues when they're not.

There is basicly no down sides going volks for okw. They have none to exploit to gain an advantidge vs okw. They outspam outlast and in the midgame outdps most if not all other main lines.

Right...because the alternative to "going volks" for okw is spamming raketens, kubels, or sturms as your core infantry. I just struggle to see your point since you're saying something along the lines of "theres no down side to building a core infantry squad instead of going a complete troll build."

Also, depends on what you're considering mid game. Most people would say 15, maybe even as early as 10 minutes. By that point, IS and riflemen should both be outDPSing and outlasting volks.

A lot of people have said this, but I struggle to see how. Volks are 250, rifles are 280, IS are 280, cons are 240, penals are 300.

Vanilla volks vs vanilla rifles are about equal at max range, and strongly favor rifles at close range. The margin to which rifles are favored probably justifies the extra 30 squad cost and 3 reinforce cost. 1 bar rifles beats stg volks (280/60 vs 250/60). Rifles also have stronger vet.

Vanilla IS vs vanilla volks favors volks at mid and close with or without cover, slightly favors volks max without cover, and favors IS max with cover. 5-man IS beat stg volks everywhere except close, which only gets better for IS when they get brens. Again, the extra cost for IS makes sense to me considering how much better their scaling is.

Cons are utility and super durable with vet. They're also clearly the worst mainline infantry when it comes to combat. Volks are better than them in combat, which doesn't say much considering every other squad is too. If they have ppshs though, they're probably better than volks in general.

Penals are more or less 6 man volks when it comes to combat power. Their insane vet means they don't have to spend munitions and still scale well.

I just don't see in which comparison volks punch above their weight (besides non-ppsh-doc cons, which again doesn't say much).

You are a top 20 player who plays all factions and makes arguments based on statistical realities.

Obviously you have no credibility whatsoever in these forums. I'm only going to listen to players who are ranked 2000+ or have been inactive from the game for at least 2 years. At the very least you should only be playing one faction.

In any case, just because Riflemen have significantly better veterancy bonuses in terms of ingame statistics, doesn't mean they actually do. There is so much you haven't considered, like the fact that Volks are OP.

Please leave the balance debates to the real professionals.

...
OR do u wanna tell us that the tournements-player are brain afk player? When will we see your next game? This yeahr? When will we see that you show us your skill, when battling me?

You are a forum troll which dont play this game active. Not more. You should prove your skill. Say when u ready.

I dont want to throw gas on a fire here, im just telling Katitof speaks in the most sensible way, he always has a solid point. He is not trolling right now. And with regard the OPs topic, he is right pointing out that volks are cheap for their utility, and their power. As an example, riflemen have less utility but get more power, and conscript get more utility but they lack on firepower serioulsy. Volks are in the golden spot. And the worst part is, that volks are the neccesary evil in OKM since they are the only option to keep them from being dominated, pretty much as OKM does to other factions. If you buff spios, you'll get spios blobs. If you buff kubels, again, kubel raids. OKM doesnt have any flexibility in early game, they are meant to be "excel" troops but that brings many problems.

My suggestions to this everlasting topic (rly its been discussed at least 3 times) is:
Increase volk reinforce cost (to stop suicidal blob raids)
Reduce starting MP of OKM and reduce MP cost of sPios and kubels (to nerf volks only)
Remove the "free" upgrade style, or revamp it to a sidetech or even docrinal and not SWS (offensive allies does that too, its a win-win situation)
Lock flamenade to vet1 (why not?)
Raise stgs cost to 80.
swap stgs for mp40s (like feuerstrum doc) making stgs doctrinal, kinda like coh1

Final words:
Maybe the trick is within the squad cost/reinforce ratio. Many squads tend to be cheaper to reinforce. Then why cant we tweaking this ratio into a real bad ratio for volks, for example 250 to call and 350 to full reinforce, since they overdo other squads, they are kind of "premium" generalist infantry in early-midgame. Then punish bad plays and model loss, germany had fewer soldiers late in war, you cant spare them to die.