Feedback for Commander Revamppatch

Is it possible to make the Panzer Commander upgrade available for the ST? Would actually synergize well, especially if it is buffed to increase vet gain.

Quick peek at Sturmtiger's in worldbuilder shows that its animator doesn't have turret_spotter_state, so I'd say that it's out of the question.

Back after some more testing:
WM
1. Veteran Squad Leaders: not very worth it on Grenadiers, even after further testing. 5-men Grenadiers do not outperform LMG42 Grens in pretty much every matchup.
This is my suggestion:
Grenadier Veteran Squad Leaders:
- Costs 60MU, 5th man requires Reinforcement
- Gives squad 2 transferrable (translation: when the model dies it moves to the next living squad member) Obersoldaten Kar 98ks, consumes 1 weapon slot
- Decreases veterancy requirements by 10%
- Locks MG42 upgrade
I would say that this would increase the squad's DPS by much more than just one non-transferrable G43, and has the added incentive of getting faster vet on your Grens.

SU
1. Inspire (KV-8 and KV-2): interesting and useful, although I would say that they are unnecessary. Providing a 0.8 received damage modifier is already huge. For the KV-2, I'd unlock Siege Mode at Vet 1 considering how strong it is in its normal mode now.

OKW
1. Emergency Repair: the ability serves quite well as emergency repairs. However, the 5-second delay is quite long, especially when considering the Soviet counterpart activates immediately (and realistically, you would only activate such an activity out of combat anyway). Personally, I'd like to see it not have an activation delay.

USF
1. WC-51: allowing the Jeep to function as a Kubel that can carry infantry is very interesting. However, now that it can function as an early-game capping unit, I see little reason for it to scale so well into late game. I would remove the artillery ability from the WC-51. Alternatively you could make the Kubel scale better into late game.
TL;DR: either nerf Jeep late game or buff Kubel.
2. Cavalry Riflemen: I don't see it being especially useful. They perform well at close range, have an effective supporting ability, and work well when stuffed into a Jeep or an M3 Halftrack, but would you pick Mechanized for this unit? Personally, I would opt for 5-man Assault Engineers over Cavalry Riflemen in almost every situation.
3. Elite Vehicle Crew: much more attractive, but it is additional micro tax. Don't know what can be done to remedy this.
4. M10: I still don't quite understand the HE shell's purpose. Seems to me it is part anti-infantry, part vehicle crit, but I don't know when I would use it, except maybe used to displace lone MGs defending a VP.

Back after some more testing:
WM
1. Veteran Squad Leaders: not very worth it on Grenadiers, even after further testing. 5-men Grenadiers do not outperform LMG42 Grens in pretty much every matchup.
This is my suggestion:
Grenadier Veteran Squad Leaders:
- Costs 60MU, 5th man requires Reinforcement
- Gives squad 2 transferrable (translation: when the model dies it moves to the next living squad member) Obersoldaten Kar 98ks, consumes 1 weapon slot
- Decreases veterancy requirements by 10%
- Locks MG42 upgrade
I would say that this would increase the squad's DPS by much more than just one non-transferrable G43, and has the added incentive of getting faster vet on your Grens.

I like this idea. It would basically give the same effect as giving the 5 man squad an MG-42 anyway but it's Original and unique.

OKW
1. Emergency Repair: the ability serves quite well as emergency repairs. However, the 5-second delay is quite long, especially when considering the Soviet counterpart activates immediately (and realistically, you would only activate such an activity out of combat anyway). Personally, I'd like to see it not have an activation delay.

The activation delay is there because the ability fixes criticals. If the delay is removed the ability could be popped during combat to fix an engine or a main gun (old T-70 self repair comes to mind).

I know that Withdraw and Refit doesn't have many - if any at all - fans, but it's very unique ability and I'm sad to see it go again. Anybody still up for some brainstorming?

How about making it work on infantry and team weapons too? This would give it much more utility. And why not making the refund 100% at the same time? Considering how you're sending your experienced units to the rear, there's no reason to get a meagre 75%. A problem (or maybe a "feature"?) I can notice immediately is sending freshly captured enemy team weapons to the rear for extra manpower.

The squads would have to be at full strength though, as refund is linked to initial squad cost, not to current number of models in the squad. It is possible to make the refund amount vary depending on the number of models, but it has to be set by hand for each squad type.

Shifting the callins around creates a number of problems, so doing that would take a significant amount of reworks, rebalancing and testing. Such a big change would be suited for a big balance patch, not for a commander revamp. For example:
(1) Command Panther to Elite Armor creates balance problems with CP's focus fire and HEAT shells, and CP's sight range with Panzer Commander
(2) Jagdtiger to Special Operations creates balance problems with uncounterable flares to spot for JT's max range


I'd like Panzer Tactician instead of Signal Relay too, but I also really like the proposed idea of an harassment/utility 223 armored car unit as it could greatly expand OKW's tactics if it's implemented right.

Oh. I’m aware that such huge changes won’t be coming in this patch, nor should they in all honesty. Just throwing it out there where it might get read for future consideration.

As for the idea of the utility armored car, it sounds nice but how should it fit in? I’m guessing it HAS to be a call in cause otherwise limiting it to being buildable with a converted HT might hamper it’s usability. In addition it would very likely kill the Kubels niche if you can just save the MP and buy something that is in every single aspect better. In addition it’s mere existence would put the Mechanized HQ in a dubious position, unless it is given the ability to heal, no?

As for the idea of the utility armored car, it sounds nice but how should it fit in? I’m guessing it HAS to be a call in cause otherwise limiting it to being buildable with a converted HT might hamper it’s usability. In addition it would very likely kill the Kubels niche if you can just save the MP and buy something that is in every single aspect better. In addition it’s mere existence would put the Mechanized HQ in a dubious position, unless it is given the ability to heal, no?

It would cost fuel and wouldn't be able to cap, so it would see different use than the Kubel. Call-ins replacing stock units is fairly common anyway.

Costs would be like 0-1CP and 250MP/20FU initially and 300-325MP/35-40FU fully upgraded.

Passive healing is among Andy's proposal, as is a Signal Relay ability for the vehicle:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/82176/feedback-for-commander-revamppatch/post/698691

Other suggestion was to give it the ability to lock down territory so it can act as a cache.


Initially the unit could see good use in combat as an early harassment unit (like UC or Scout Car) and as a softcounter to HMG/sniper builds. Mid and late game it will be able to contribute with utility.

There's a retexture planned for the British FHQ? That could work a bit, but that wouldn't fix those Brens and PIATs lying around. That USF forward base building is pretty good too. I just tried to avoid using ambient buildings.

It can be solved with "glassy" textures for Bren and Piat. They will remain on 3D model, but invinsible for eyes. Idk about retexturing, i want to believe it is possible. Maybe somebody has a contact of Starbuck?

This is already a much better design for a unique building in my opinion, even tho I haven't even seen the retextured British FHQ for the Soviets.

Another alternative is probably the building SneakEye is using in his All Units mod for the USF as a forward base.

Seen here:

(Top middle)

Just in case, the model is: "environment/objects/buildings/domination_bonus_01/domination_bonus_01"

This USF HQ so huge, what about british counterpart with jeep? It looks more like forward for me. And futhermore, it has medkits inside of it.
P.S. WC-51 were used by Soviet Union, so it is ok to have them.

It can be solved with "glassy" textures for Bren and Piat. They will remain on 3D model, but invinsible for eyes. Idk about retexturing, i want to believe it is possible. Maybe somebody has a contact of Starbuck?

Well, from what I understood, adding anything new to the game (including textures) is a no-no for this or next patch, so I focused on reusing existing assets.

Well, from what I understood, adding anything new to the game (including textures) is a no-no for this or next patch, so I focused on reusing existing assets.

Then, variant with british HQ from SneakEye AllUnits mod seems the best choice for me

Don't forget the radio post from the campaign! Animator is located at "gameplay\resource_points\radio_post_sp\radio_post_sp"

It looks like this:

I think that might be the best candidate for a field camp.

USF
1. WC-51: allowing the Jeep to function as a Kubel that can carry infantry is very interesting. However, now that it can function as an early-game capping unit, I see little reason for it to scale so well into late game. I would remove the artillery ability from the WC-51. Alternatively you could make the Kubel scale better into late game.
TL;DR: either nerf Jeep late game or buff Kubel.
2. Cavalry Riflemen: I don't see it being especially useful. They perform well at close range, have an effective supporting ability, and work well when stuffed into a Jeep or an M3 Halftrack, but would you pick Mechanized for this unit? Personally, I would opt for 5-man Assault Engineers over Cavalry Riflemen in almost every situation.
3. Elite Vehicle Crew: much more attractive, but it is additional micro tax. Don't know what can be done to remedy this.
4. M10: I still don't quite understand the HE shell's purpose. Seems to me it is part anti-infantry, part vehicle crit, but I don't know when I would use it, except maybe used to displace lone MGs defending a VP.

Replacing AE with cavalry riflemen would actually make the commander a lto worst cuz cavalry riflemen are panic unit if you lose a vet 1 riflemen snare squat and need to repalce that unit plus smoke and the thompson with a bar

Replacing Cavalry Riflemen with Assault Engineers would actually make the commander a lot worse cuz cavalry riflemen are panic unit if you lose a vet 1 riflemen snare squad and need to replace that unit plus smoke and the Thompson with a BAR

You misunderstand me. I do not intend to replace Cav Rifles with Assault Engineers.

Cavalry Riflemen are unique, perform decently well at close range, have great utility, and have an interesting CC ability, yet I would not pick Mechanized for this unit. It's probably something about personal playstyle, as I favor using support weapons and not clown cars and bazooka buses.

(Partially off-topic, seeing all the vehicle-heavy playstyles that have grown out of buffing USF Mechanized, I would have liked to see a German Mechanized revamp where they made the Sdkfz. 250 Group something that you would actually want to get. WM playstyle is largely static and focuses heavily on support weapon play, which is why a mobile, vehicle-heavy playstyle would be so refreshing.)

I like this idea. It would basically give the same effect as giving the 5 man squad an MG-42 anyway but it's Original and unique.

It's essentially a 15% DPS increase for the entire squad. Add a man for 25% more squad DPS, and in the end, you have a Grenadier squad that has 40% more squad DPS (that's more resilient to bad RNG, e.g. the squad leader dies and you lose the G43) and 25% more durability.

Now that's an attractive Grenadier squad upgrade. Might be overpowered, though.

The activation delay is there because the ability fixes criticals. If the delay is removed the ability could be popped during combat to fix an engine or a main gun (old T-70 self repair comes to mind).

Ahh, I understand now. That's a good reason for having an activation delay.

You are almost comically missing the point here, the reason armor was added to Urban defence precisely because commanders becoming useless late game is bad design, you have no reason to pick such commander over meta commanders who are mostly good at every stage of the game.

Actually you are missing the point of commanders (can we pls avoid provocation at least in this thread?).

A commander should not be there to make the a faction stronger is all stages and aspect of the game but the add strength and options at a particular stage or aspect of the game. Else the faction becomes commander dependent.

In addition revamped commanders should be buffed to meta commander level since many of the meta commander are simply op: For instance a commander that combines g43/stuka loiter and Tiger, a powerful infantry buff, a powerful off map and superheavy call-in, is op and instead of nerfing these abilities one should simply not combine them.

As I explained adding a powerful off map to the commander instead of call-in tank would keep him relevant in late game without making him OP.

Your explanation is unneeded, meta commanders are not going anywhere and they wont get nerfed either. These reworks are about buffing unused commanders not trying to fix doctrine system as a whole, its way too late for that.

I know that Withdraw and Refit doesn't have many - if any at all - fans, but it's very unique ability and I'm sad to see it go again. Anybody still up for some brainstorming?

...

I have suggested a change that imo would make "refuel and refit" a a very good ability.

Currently the commander has a phytophthora of call-in to choose from when one would be able to use only 1 or 2 of them. By redesigning the ability to actually "swamp" vehicles instead of "selling" them one can greatly increase the versatility of build and usage of light vehicles.

For instance if WC51 come with a button to swap it to an M3 one would have more reason to invest to WC51 even if it had little to offer in late since one would have to option to "swap" it for something better. If the m3 could then be swap for M21 and/or for AAHT the player could keep his light vehicles relevant in all stages of the game. Even new builts/options could be explored like Stuart and "Refited" AAHT or AAHT and "refited" m20 to Greyhound.

Imo Refuel and refit can become a very useful ability if it promotes investing in light vehicles.

Your explanation is unneeded, meta commanders are not going anywhere and they wont get nerfed either. These reworks are about buffing unused commanders not trying to fix doctrine system as a whole, its way too late for that.

Well meta commander should be nerfed/redesing (and have been nerfed in all of previous patches), buffing all commander to meta level is not feasible and is quite pointless since one then would have to nerf stock options.

Unless you have some inside information, pls do not present your opinion/prediction as a fact.

Well meta commander should be nerfed/redesing (and have been nerfed in all of previous patches), buffing all commander to meta level is not feasible and is quite pointless since one then would have to nerf stock options.

Unless you have some inside information, pls do not present your opinion/prediction as a fact.

Here is a common sense information: Commander revamp patch scope is limited to the commanders who are getting reworked. Thats it. Nobody is going to randomly rework half of the doctrines in this game on a whim, there would be no telling how factions would even perform if something like was done and it would require a long amount of testing to pull something like that off.

...Personally, I would opt for 5-man Assault Engineers over Cavalry Riflemen in almost every situation.
...

That is a problem of Assault engineers and not of Calvary riflemen.

5 men flamer unit available from minute 1, than can also equipe bars should simply not be in the game. If Assault engineer need more punch (when they should be more about utility than DPS) one should start them as 4 men with the option to upgrade to a flamer or 2 Thompson +1 entity locked behind an officer.

Imo all USF infantry call-in should also be move to CP1.