Feedback for Commander Revamppatch

And that is why you kill Panthers and Tigers with ZiS-3, while -A PAIR OF- M-42 should still be able to go up against ost P4, but begin to struggle with OKW P4.

Its not a hard concept.

My idea is fairly simple, just make it a Soviet Raketenwerfer, I even attempted it myself (at least the garrison ability) and this is what I got:
P.S.

If any other modder wants to (looking at SnakeEye and Planet Smasher since I know they lurk around here) they can make their own attempt at it, see how it goes, for testing purposes, or science(?). I would at least appreciate it.

Cheers.

I like the idea!

This is my test result:


I changed these values:
Show Spoiler

I suggest you debate the penetration buff ans how useful it would be with Katitof according to whom:

"Single M-42 will never be a threat to mediums even if it had 500 penetration, however 2 of them should be able to tackle it, because AT is the only thing the unit can do and 2 of them cost much, much more then single ZiS-3."

As for role zis and M42 does not share the same role. Zis is an antitank gun and M42 is a light antitank gun.

PLS do me a favor and stop the personal comments I really wouldn't like to have to respond on personal level.

Light anti-tank gun is still supposed to act as anti-tank gun, not anti-car gun.

As for sharing roles argument: it's AT gun, what else AT gun is supposed to do other than fighting tanks? Of course it shares roles with ZiS, they both are same type of unit

Its like saying 82mm mortar should not be able to kill infantry because 120mm is better at it.

If a faction gets both a garrisonable AT gun and a regular one, OKW is going to instantly become unbalanced (in the negative direction) for only having the underperforming Raketenwerfer.

What is your definition of "underperforming"? Raketen has same pen values at far range as ZiS (3x of M-42) while dealing 2x damage per shot compared to M-42 while being nondoc tier 0 weapon on a faction that supposed to have weak support weapons and costing just 70 MP more...

If a faction gets both a garrisonable AT gun and a regular one, OKW is going to instantly become unbalanced (in the negative direction) for only having the underperforming Raketenwerfer.

I fail to see how changing M-42 into a garrisonable AT gun would hugely impact OKW. Even in a building, M-42 is not a big threat to anything bigger than Luchs.

I like the idea!

This is my test result:


I changed these values:
Show Spoiler

I fucking love you, no homo of course.

That's another thing: why does a faction that's "supposed to have weak support weapons" have:

A) No proper anti-tank mines
B) The longest time of any faction to bring out medium armor
C) Same extremely limited handheld AT options as Ostheer (nothing like Penal satchels or PTRS)

Nothing about OKW AT makes any sense.

Nothing about OKW AT makes any sense.

I think that is a subject for another topic. Shall we get back to commander feedback?

That's another thing: why does a faction that's "supposed to have weak support weapons" have:

A) No proper anti-tank mines
B) The longest time of any faction to bring out medium armor
C) Same extremely limited handheld AT options as Ostheer (nothing like Penal satchels or PTRS)

Nothing about OKW AT makes any sense.

For the sake of not feeling like an Allied fanboy -

1. That, I haven't thought about, altho the idea of a "Panzerjager" squad could have had them.

2. I think that's owed to the fact that it's a better version of the Ostheer Panzer IV.

3. Again, there was the idea of a Panzerjager squad that I and a few other people suggested, hell I even based a whole doctrine around them in my New Commander Concepts topic which you can view here: https://www.coh2.org/topic/81230/new-commander-concepts

To that end, instead of the Jagers for the Overwatch doctrine a Panzerjager squad based on them could have been added instead altho it would not fit the overall theme of the commander.

For me personally, I think that the OKW would benefit from a Panzerjager commander, like the PE before them, and a proper AT gun, as well as an MG, of course the rest of the Army would then need to be adjusted and that would basically be a 3rd rework of the Army but as SneakEye already pointed out this should be left for another topic.

If a faction gets both a garrisonable AT gun and a regular one, OKW is going to instantly become unbalanced (in the negative direction) for only having the underperforming Raketenwerfer.

OKW has 7 different infantry types that aren't super niche one role only squads(partisans).
They do not seem to be imbalanced against brits who only got 3.

Balance does not work that way and OKW doesn't need to have everything best.

You have 3 tiers of stock TD vehicles, that's 2 more then most allied factions.

Back to the m42.
Why not give it the ability to damage the engine of a tank (available in vet 2). It would motivate you to build a m42 very early. You can kill enemy cars and light tanks with it, and in mid late game you can stun or critical damage heavy tanks and kill them very easy with the vehicle satchel of penals or an additional zis.

Back to the m42.
Why not give it the ability to damage the engine of a tank (available in vet 2). It would motivate you to build a m42 very early. You can kill enemy cars and light tanks with it, and in mid late game you can stun or critical damage heavy tanks and kill them very easy with the vehicle satchel of penals or an additional zis.

Miragefla said during twitch mod testing they are not going to do it precisely because they dont want it used that way (stun+satchel), its a reasonable suggestion but it might obviously lead to CoH1 halftrack BS

Going raketen route is what they're planning next patch, meaning faster movement in stealth and possibily ability to garrison/wider firing arc (which isnt enough without pen buff)

Back to the m42.
Why not give it the ability to damage the engine of a tank (available in vet 2). It would motivate you to build a m42 very early. You can kill enemy cars and light tanks with it, and in mid late game you can stun or critical damage heavy tanks and kill them very easy with the vehicle satchel of penals or an additional zis.

There is a reason why all ost TWP was nerfed hard.

Why do Cav riflemen get smoke AND snares? Name a CQC inf that gets snares other than this. It's bad enough that they get smoke. And the fact that now only two USF docs have no doctrinal inf when their mainline riflemen are already very good at everything.

Note that you have to squeeze them to your build order full of riflemen

NKVD Disruption Tactics from desing point of view.
Thematically the commander fits an infantry oriented commander.

Removed
4CP Recon Flight
Strumovic attacks and reckon overflight do not mix since the combination is too powerful in addition radio intercept fits the commander perfectly and provide information already. The decision to replace ability was correct.

6CP Fear Propaganda Artillery
The ability was good thematically but the commander can do with out it.

6CP Rapid Conscription
Since the commander is infantry oriented this ability could help reduce bleed allot, with a redesign since the current implementation has it problem. One end up with squad he might not actually want. Now if the ability was more like recoup losses and instead conscript the unit that returned was "Shtrafbats" . "Shtrafbats" would be a unit with target size with low DPS and the ability "improved merge" that also healed something like 6 hp but would not be able to reinforce. So they could be used to man support weapons or reinforce troops in the front line. Their vet 1 ability would be "redeemed in blood" where the could upgrade to another infantry like penals/conscripts or even shock/Guards.

Current
CP 0 Kv-8 heavy flamethrower tank
The could fit the commander with some changes.
The unit is still in weird place since it has a tech cost and then another 145 fuel for basically a AI unit with poor AT capability. Since this is a specialized unit it can be call-in again with come changes.
Unit can be called in at current price (maybe require T3)or can also be built from T4 for 120 fuel. This will help the unit be more attractive across mode and economy inflation.
Reduce rear armor which is simply to high and unit like the PzIV has trouble dealing with the vehicle even when it has successfully flank it.
The damage reduction is a very powerful change and imo it should be moved to vet 1 as timed ability it could also scale with veterancy.
The unit should have it vet bonuses checked and have mobility replaced with any addition HP/armor it might need.

Armor bonuses should become (+) value instead (x) value since the bonus hardy offer anything to protect the vehicles from rear shots.

This change could help allot Soviet play T1/T2(/T3) strategies with KV-8 acting as damage sponge. It would then have to gradually (or even wit patch) be removed by commander with Super heavies like IS-2/KV-2 and move to other commander without Premium mediums/heavies. It will also help balance the unit better.

CP 0 Radio intercept
Ability is nice and fits the commander thematically.

CP 2 Commissar Squad
Although this is a great addition the unit has some issues with the implementation. Having an passive aura could lead to number of issues with the Soviet tendency to horde but currently its a rather micro heavy unit having to switch between Commissar chose the unit you want and be ready to retreat since the affected unit will probably be focused fired upon if "Fight to the Death" is chosen or avoided and move away if "stand you ground" is chosen. The unit is simply not enough to "shell" the commander.

Suggestions:
Rename to "NKVD Commissar Squad"
Give a passive aura to the unit to be worth unit but not one that buff stats to avoid blobbing. Instead one that improves abilities already available to the units. For instance Conscripts could fire thei weapon during "ourah" or gain a accuracy bonus when stationary, Molotov AT grenades could get sorter time to use or more range, penal satchels could more range.
or
One could introduce these abilities to the units themselves but not be able to use them unless in the aura of Commissar.
This changes aim to make the Commissar a good addition to the army but reduce the need to blob since the cost on using them in blob would go up.

Another approach would be that officer came with no abilities but could be upgraded to either:
военком Commissar giving defensive abilities/bonuses
or
NKVD giving offensive abilities/bonuses

CP 3 Scorched Earth Policy
The ability fit the theme but again there issues with the implementation. The fire damage seem good and all booby traps should be changes to incendiary as this one. The trap thou takes way to long to build especially since one has to decap cap and build and can actually backfire if used on friendly sector since one could just drive with HT over the traps set them off with caping them and watch the owner lose resources.

Suggestions:
Do not replace Rapid conscription but change it as suggested.
or
Separate the ability into 2 parts the trap for CE and disable of neutral sector Commissar
or
simply leave rapid conscription and add the disrupt part to the Commissar squad.

CP 12 IL-2 Strurmovic attacks
The commander can should have a strong call-in attack but maybe bombing or AT bombing are better candidates. Any way from a design point of view loiter planes should be redesigned a bit (and so should AA weapons, for instance quad is OP as AA, while boffor sand USF AAHT to weak). They should be allowed a first run without being able to be shot down maybe providing a small loss (1-3) only for the first run. Then instead of being easy to shot down they should suffer "suppression" type penalties when fired upon from AA weapons

CP 2 Commissar Squad
Although this is a great addition the unit has some issues with the implementation. Having an passive aura could lead to number of issues with the Soviet tendency to horde but currently its a rather micro heavy unit having to switch between Commissar chose the unit you want and be ready to retreat since the affected unit will probably be focused fired upon if "Fight to the Death" is chosen or avoided and move away if "stand you ground" is chosen. The unit is simply not enough to "shell" the commander.

Suggestions:
Rename to "NKVD Commissar Squad"
Give a passive aura to the unit to be worth unit but not one that buff stats to avoid blobbing. Instead one that improves abilities already available to the units. For instance Conscripts could fire thei weapon during "ourah" or gain a accuracy bonus when stationary, Molotov AT grenades could get sorter time to use or more range, penal satchels could more range.
or
One could introduce these abilities to the units themselves but not be able to use them unless in the aura of Commissar.
This changes aim to make the Commissar a good addition to the army but reduce the need to blob since the cost on using them in blob would go up.

Another approach would be that officer came with no abilities but could be upgraded to either:
военком Commissar giving defensive abilities/bonuses
or
NKVD giving offensive abilities/bonuses

In my mod, I've given the Commissar squad a "Summary Execution" ability (think DoW2 commissar) which kills a model of a squad that is suppressed/pinned to break suppression and gain the oorah speed boost at the cost of making the squad easier to hit. Might be an interesting tool to promote flanking/repositioning behind better cover, and I think a lot less clunky than current implementation.

In my mod, I've given the Commissar squad a "Summary Execution" ability (think DoW2 commissar) which kills a model of a squad that is suppressed/pinned to break suppression and gain the oorah speed boost at the cost of making the squad easier to hit. Might be an interesting tool to promote flanking/repositioning behind better cover, and I think a lot less clunky than current implementation.

Although a great idea and there "executions" in a campaign mission if I remember correctly, I doubt Relic would go for it. Some people get offended by thing like that.

Designing the Commissar is bit tricky since one has to avoid a "doom blob" but still make him useful.

(thanks for reading and responding to my rather long post)

Some people get offended by thing like that.

Some people shouldn't play war games then. What's next, people getting offended because there's soldiers shooting at each other?

Some people shouldn't play war games then. What's next, people getting offended because there's soldiers shooting at each other?

Seriously cant figure out why some people would not like retarded Nazi-tier propaganda depictions of commisars shooting their own advancing troops in the back, ripped straight from Enemy at the Gates?