Feedback for Commander Revamppatch

Im pretty sure I was the one to originally suggest giving them mp40s. Also, theyre an smg profile. Thats neither unique nor unintuitive.

Both SVT and VG are using "unique" weapon profile (havent checked mp40s yet) and both weapons have caused more problems than they have solved at least in my opinion.

Also, I honestly havent seen a convincing argument against stormtroopers or a decent alternative. Most people who argued against the mp40s seemed to assume they were pio smgs, and I think they still cant drop that stigma. I have the honest feeling that if we kept the exact same stats, but reskinned their weapons as mp40s, the complaints would go away.

Try storm-trooper with a shreck upgrade and 3 MP-40 they fail both AT and AI and far inferior to Guards and PTRS Penals, possibly even to shcrek SP.

Beyond that, commandos are already proven to work as a unit, with many people enjoying their style. Not sure why stormtroopers, which in the patch operate much the same, are now suddenly a failure of a unit.

Because there is already and officer with smg available and have to high pop for an smg unit.

Ambush. You put them on hold-fire, hide them somewhere and then toss a grenade and decloak when an enemy squad wanders too near. Like Commandos.

Like current live Stormtroopers with Stgs you mean. Expect the live version has other uses too.

Live stormtroopers have the following problem:

1. Unupgraded, they are just buffed, more expensive Grens with the exact same weapons.
2. Their upgrade is too costly.
3. A unit with bolt action rifles and nade-on-cooldown is useless for infiltration purposes.
4. Way too expensive for what they do.
5. Beyond the near useless infiltration spawn, they will operate as regular infantry most of the game with an occasional ambush. At which point they are again either Grens without an MG42 or very expensive buffed PzGrens without a true unique role.

The solution to this is:

1. Slightly different mixed weapons profile, found to be work well with Volks
2. Slightly cheaper upgrade at 75. Solved if they can spawn with a Stgs.
3. Already solved if they spawn with a Stgs. Not more than two, because that would be Op for infiltration.
4. Solved, since now they provide an intermediate weapons profile between Grens and PzGrens, with upgrade to be semi ShrekPzGrens or PzGrens with ambush.
5. With their versatile armament and upgrades, they can be anything. A versatile infantry unit that can fill the holes in OST infantry line.

decent alternative

Urban Assault Panzergrenadiers? Modified of course, like the current Cav Rifles.

Would also give something new and unique to the Ost and the doctrine specifically, add Forward Supply Station to the doctrine as well and you'd have a pretty solid choice for heavy infantry play in my opinion.

Because right now the only reason for people to go this commander would only be for the 5th man upgrade, which as many people have already noted, is lacking for the Grenadiers, altho I haven't tested them out yet.

Im pretty sure I was the one to originally suggest giving them mp40s. Also, theyre an smg profile. Thats neither unique nor unintuitive.

Also, I honestly havent seen a convincing argument against stormtroopers or a decent alternative. Most people who argued against the mp40s seemed to assume they were pio smgs, and I think they still cant drop that stigma. I have the honest feeling that if we kept the exact same stats, but reskinned their weapons as mp40s, the complaints would go away.

Beyond that, commandos are already proven to work as a unit, with many people enjoying their style. Not sure why stormtroopers, which in the patch operate much the same, are now suddenly a failure of a unit.

Nobody has the stigma that they're like pio smgs. People have compared the mp40s to old shock ppsh. And now u claim they're at least as good as commando stens. Except shocks have 6men and body armor which is far better than RA bonus at point blank. All u did was take away the overall firepower of stormtroopers and making them a lot harder to use. Now you're forcing people to play far more aggressively with them just to get the same lethality of midrange stgs. Most commandos are 5men and at vet 3 they get their op smoke grenade retreat which allows them to be reckless. Rangers, paras, shocks, agrens, even the assault engis are all at least 5men. And the fact that thompsons have better range than even the "new" sten-like mp40s. Ostheer is the only faction that lacks true elite infantry. Storms were the only thing that kind of resembled anything "elite" and now you're trying to take it away. We don't need another glass cannon assault squad. Commandos are great for brits because they already have quite elite infantry. 5man double bren squads are like ober over even better. Brit micro is easier since their squads are the opposite of glass cannon. As you know, I've already made a poll regarding this and most people have voted to keep stgs and make them a bit cheaper. However, u just wanna force a change upon us to only your benefit. If anyone is still interested in voting https://www.coh2.org/topic/82327/stormtrooper-changes is the link.

Hey guys,

Stormtroopers are obviously a hot topic. I just wanted to say we are still considering our options with this particular unit, and again nothing is set in stone.

We added some new changes to see if they can become an attractive choice in their redesigned role. If, after testing, people feel they still aren't cutting the mustard, we will revisit the issue. However, we would like people to give them a fair shot.

Cheers

I dont get this whole Stormtroopers butthurt. PanzerGrens are their exact copy with free STGs

Even if Stormtroopers get turned into CQC squad, PanzerGrens will be still there as they are non-doctrinal unit.

So Ost loses absolutely nothing in the end aside of getting their own commandos, whats the issue here?

I know many might oppose the change but you think that you could replace the 105Sherman with the E8 or even the Pershing?
I feel the unit needs bigger buffs to be prefered to the regular HE Sherman, given you still need to tech up for Major to get your M10 Horde now, being a call-in isn't good enough for it.

The 105's a Brummbar. If it's not pulling its anti-infantry weight relative to a regular HE Sherman then it needs further buffs, not replacement in my mind.

The unit's conceptually sound.

Stumtiger

-AOE distance to 1/3.75/8 from 0.25/1.5/8.

Does someone on the balance team straight up hate the ST or what?

If you're going to change its identity so drastically, then at least change the shitty manual reload system and or stupidly high veterancy requirements.

The 105's a Brummbar. If it's not pulling its anti-infantry weight relative to a regular HE Sherman then it needs further buffs, not replacement in my mind.

The unit's conceptually sound.

It doesn't have the durability to do what the StuPa does, it lacks the armor and health to do those frontal assaults, while it has smoke canisters as any other American Sherman does and could benefit greatly from the new Elite Vehicle Crews. I still haven't seen a situation the cheaper baseline option isn't just better overall.

Panzer Commander
-Artillery Barrage delay from 3 to 0.
-Now increases main gun accuracy by 10%.
-CP Requirement from 8 to 5.

I tested this a bit. I think the artillery barrage as it is right now is very useful in deterring infantry blobs or AT guns. Definitely helps a lot to make the Panzer Commander worth it over the pintle MG.


However, it seems way too powerful against enemy armor. If the barrage hits in full, it does up to 60-80% health damage on superheavies like the ISU-152 and IS-2 and can potentially 'one-shot' mediums and TDs (and the Pershing). Even if poor micro on the enemy's side is to blame, losing (heavy) armor to an 80 munitions ability seems unjust. I would suggest to lower the damage to vehicles or spread out the shells a bit more.

See image below. Both ISU-152 and IS-2 are struck by one single Artillery Barrage by the Panther and lost a very significant amount of health. In the same test, Firefly and Jackson were killed instantly. Pershing was killed/abandoned instantly. SU-100 and T-34-85 survived with about 5-10% health. All tanks were 100% HP before getting hit by 1 single Artillery Barrage.

(T-34-85 was accidentally shot by spawning Jackson)

I dont get this whole Stormtroopers butthurt. PanzerGrens are their exact copy with free STGs

Even if Stormtroopers get turned into CQC squad, PanzerGrens will be still there as they are non-doctrinal unit.

So Ost loses absolutely nothing in the end aside of getting their own commandos, whats the issue here?

The issue is that Storms have a bit better RA, tactical adv is more reliable than ambush camo and u can use it outside of cover. Plus Storms have a lower pop cap surprisingly enough.

Why not make Stormtroopers spawn with two rifles and two MP 40, then give them option to buy additional two MP40 or four PGren G43 non-doctrinally? That way they will be different from default Pgrens no matter what

Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't Stormtroopers in the Wehrmacht given the best and most advanced weapons? Why on earth are they using MP40s?

It doesn't have the durability to do what the StuPa does, it lacks the armor and health to do those frontal assaults, while it has smoke canisters as any other American Sherman does and could benefit greatly from the new Elite Vehicle Crews. I still haven't seen a situation the cheaper baseline option isn't just better overall.

I suppose the Vet 2 received damage modify is supposed to help with that - but of course in terms of pure wipe potential the M4A3 is always going to be much better. The "Reserve Armor" for Mechanized is in a similar spot in my eyes - the Bulldozer Upgrade gimps mobility too much for my liking at the steep cost of 80 Munitions for only 1 extra AT hit and no extra lethality. Meanwhile the 76 MM is a poor mans Easy 8 that you'd almost never want given you're getting only 10 extra Penetration and some reload speed at the cost of HE shells - it's almost never worthwhile when you can just get a Jackson if you need better AT. Honestly I'd rather see M10 or Easy 8 if there needs to be an armor call-in.

I tried out Mech Company some more and I got 4 points to make:

1. The WC51 really loses effectiveness as the match progresses but I still don't think it's worth to even withdraw it to get resources back, especially after you've upgraded it with the .50 cal.

It's 155mm barrage ability has a shorter range even than that of the Major, for whatever reason, and I found myself more often than not kamikatzing it in order to get a barrage off and I lost it 1-2 times out of 3.

What I suggest is giving it another upgrade, weapons carrier, allowing it to drop BARs and Bazookas or the other alternative, "locking" it down, like the Ambulance/Opel Blitz truck, deploying some mini weapon racks so your units can arm in the field, to give it more utility and use after the mid game passes.

Another thing I really liked that someone else mentioned was it capping without any upgrades.

2. Cav Rifles - I suggest making them 300 manpower but them coming with M3 Grease Guns by default and being able to upgrade with M1 Thompsons similar to the Rangers.

The idea is cutting down a bit on the manpower cost since as someone again already mentioned it, the commander is quiet manpower intensive.

3. The M3 Halftrack's med kit drop ability is somehow bugged, for me it wouldn't deploy the med bags anywhere else other than directly under it for some reason, which was a problem since I had to move it each time in order to grab them, I don't remember it doing this before, not sure if the range of the ability was reduced or something.

4. I suppose that replacing the Reserve Armor with the M10 would probably be an option provided that Cav Rifles become a solely AI unit, the M10 will provide them with the needed AT, especially if Combined Arms is made a passive for Cav Rifles, then a slot would be freed up for something else.

I really thought about it and shuffling around the tank call-ins for the USF would make some sense provided that they fit in with the commander and are balanced.

Currently the 76mm Sherman is overperforming due to Combined Arms.

Vipper makes the point that Armor provides both strong AI and AT options with the 105mm Sherman and M10 in Armor.

Another person suggested replacing the E8 in Rifle Company with the 105 Sherman.

I would go a step further and giving Armor the M26 Pershing if the M10 and 105 Sherman are moved to other commanders.

What I imagine is this:

Rifle Company - 105mm Sherman instead of E8. The 105 Sherman is an infantry support tank and would provide the Rifles with cover with their barricades.

Mech Company - M10s instead of Reserve Armor. Would provide Cav Rifles with the needed AT support if they become a dedicated AI unit, especially with Combined Arms (active or passive).

Armor Company - M26 Pershing instead of M10 Sherman and Reserve Armor instead of 105 Sherman, the commander would retain access to bulldozers.

Heavy Cav - E8 instead of M26 Pershing, would help out with Combined Arms, having Rangers as well would probably be a problem tho.

Just for the record, this is a big IF scenario I thought of based on my own experience together with what I've read on here from other people.

it seems way too powerful against enemy armor.

+1

If it's used on a tank with a damaged engine they aren't going to be able to escape the area in time. Well done for spotting this and thinking to test it.

It doesn't have the durability to do what the StuPa does, it lacks the armor and health to do those frontal assaults, while it has smoke canisters as any other American Sherman does and could benefit greatly from the new Elite Vehicle Crews. I still haven't seen a situation the cheaper baseline option isn't just better overall.

check patch notes:
Dozer starts with 720 HP and gets 0.8 (vet 2) damage reduction reaching EHP 900.
Brumbar has 800 HP and and gets armor bonus.

Dozer got buffed allot in the mod (overbuffed imo) and if one want to model it after Brumbar one has to keep in mind that is still call-in with no tech cost or upgrade with MU that is fighting against infantry with less entities.

Could the Artillery Field Offcer get an extra SMG model? It was given MP40s so it could double as a CQC squad, but with only four Assault Grenadier MP40s it's not that good at it.

Alternatively, switch the MP40s out for STGs so it becomes a midranger. That'd also reduce the overlap with the MP40 Stormtroopers.

When it comes to storm-troopers one keep in mind what the original design was. They where designed to to cut off enemy sector so that one could pull close the pocket.

Later their introduced to elite troops to replace the gap left from troop training.

If one want to redesign the unit one would also have to redesign the encirclement commander.

And imo that is what the problem if the current commander revamp approach. Instead of focus on fixing the commander in scope it tries to fix balance/many commanders and it ends up to create at least as many issues as it solves.

Either make the unit and elite infantry and redesign encirclement commander or remove it from infantry commander and focus the energy in making the commanders work with out trying to balance the whole game.