Feedback for Commander Revamppatch

Dear Kirik
I am sory to have to point out this to you, but this thread is for providing feedback to Relic about the patch, which I did.

If I ever need feedback from you for my suggestions be sure that I will ask for it but will do so in an appropriate thread. Now can you pls be so kind as to tone down the aggressive attitude?

And thats exactly point of my post - providing a you feedback on your suggestions.
It's nice to have a reality check once in a while, especially once you start claiming hilarious things like KV-2 having a faster attack speed than ISU when it was nerfed to 9 seconds this patch as well as comparing KV-2 ammo deflection to ISU's HE instead of AP. And you also conviniently avoided the fact ISU AP ammo has much higher pen than KV-2's this patch, on top of having same deflection.

The only reasonable thing in your post was point about wide AoE radius and high deflection, that would create problems which is why nerfing KV-2 pen last patch and giving it even higher def damage was a mistake.

So Jeager Light Infantry haven't really been discussed beyond their initial changes, but the Pathfinders discussion brought up a good point about their timing.

JLI are a squad that supplements other squads rather than being able to fight on its own. The problem with using such a squad is that their timing (2CP) makes them awkward to use. By that time there's already a stack of mainline (Volks) infantry around with elite infantry (Obers) soon on the way. Manpower at that point is needed for the transition into midgame: for ATG, HMG, light vehicles and elite infantry.

I think this is the main reason they aren't used much in the live build.

I would therefor propose to put them at 0CP, and let them start on a cooldown of 1-2 minutes so they can be deployed as the third unit instead of a Volks squad. Having a long range unit early on would also help OKW as a softcounter to HMGs and snipers. It would supplement the faction really well I think and they might be used much more often this way.


If this were to be changed and proven succesful, it would be obvious to give Pathfinders the same treatment at a later stage.

So Jeager Light Infantry haven't really been discussed beyond their initial changes, but the Pathfinders discussion brought up a good point about their timing.

JLI are a squad that supplements other squads rather than being able to fight on its own. The problem with using such a squad is that their timing (2CP) makes them awkward to use. By that time there's already a stack of mainline (Volks) infantry around with elite infantry (Obers) soon on the way. Manpower at that point is needed for the transition into midgame: for ATG, HMG, light vehicles and elite infantry.

I think this is the main reason they aren't used much in the live build.

I would therefor propose to put them at 0CP, and let them start on a cooldown of 1-2 minutes so they can be deployed as the third unit instead of a Volks squad. Having a long range unit early on would also help OKW as a softcounter to HMGs and snipers. It would supplement the faction really well I think and they might be used much more often this way.


If this were to be changed and proven succesful, it would be obvious to give Pathfinders the same treatment at a later stage.

Actually, JLI are capable by themselves, using 3 gren gewehrs and G43 that snipes at 75%, they keep high DPS and dropping models quickly, which pathfinders are incapable of without dual BARs.
There used to be a whole meta where they were used a LOT by themselves.
Wasn't ostwind bound to tech? That would be the only reason why they are no longer seen every single game.

Excuse me? They carry 3x (Gren) Kar98 and 1x Scoped Gewehr 43. I have literally never seen them used in the past 3-6 months and I worry the current changes aren't sufficient to really increase that number.

So Jeager Light Infantry haven't really been discussed beyond their initial changes, but the Pathfinders discussion brought up a good point about their timing.

JLI are a squad that supplements other squads rather than being able to fight on its own. The problem with using such a squad is that their timing (2CP) makes them awkward to use. By that time there's already a stack of mainline (Volks) infantry around with elite infantry (Obers) soon on the way. Manpower at that point is needed for the transition into midgame: for ATG, HMG, light vehicles and elite infantry.

I think this is the main reason they aren't used much in the live build.

I would therefor propose to put them at 0CP, and let them start on a cooldown of 1-2 minutes so they can be deployed as the third unit instead of a Volks squad. Having a long range unit early on would also help OKW as a softcounter to HMGs and snipers. It would supplement the faction really well I think and they might be used much more often this way.


If this were to be changed and proven succesful, it would be obvious to give Pathfinders the same treatment at a later stage.

+1000

Excuse me? They carry 3x (Gren) Kar98 and 1x Scoped Gewehr 43. I have literally never seen them used in the past 3-6 months and I worry the current changes aren't sufficient to really increase that number.

Yeah, I meant Kars, not G43 obviously.
I'm little tired today, so expecto weirdo stuff'o in my post tonight.

IMO this is one of those many situations where gameplay trumps semblance of realism. Another example of mechanics that are good for gameplay but would be nonsensical in real life is at grenades and panzerfausts causing engine damage when shooting at the front of a tank. Or cav rifles, guards, and most axis infantry literally just pulling guns out their ass some weirdly specific amount of seconds after you told them so just because you told them to (I’m talking about weapon upgrades lol).

Considering that they had no Halftrack and used the M3 one (Like in Special Weapons) I don't see a problem in using a bit of fantasy with the mortar HT.

I mean they now have the M1 81mm Mortar in the air supply operation drop, you could just say that it didn't need a genius to figure out how to make it a bit more mobile by mounting it on a Halftrack.

But I agree with the rest of what you say.

Guys, this whole concept of "what's one more inaccuracy if this exists already" is a dangerous rabbit hole. The game needs more authenticity, not less, and we should aim to keep what WWII polish it has left instead of making it into Battlefield V the RTS.

The riflegrenade smoke can easily be replaced by a standard smoke grenade with equal range. I'm also sure there are far more options than just adding a mortar HT. Pack Howi comes to mind, as they were sent in great numbers to the British airborne units.

Point is, we shouldn't dismiss the weight of historic authenticity. When there are historically accurate alternatives that can give practically identical in-game effects, we should always opt for those instead.

So Jeager Light Infantry haven't really been discussed beyond their initial changes, but the Pathfinders discussion brought up a good point about their timing.

JLI are a squad that supplements other squads rather than being able to fight on its own. The problem with using such a squad is that their timing (2CP) makes them awkward to use. By that time there's already a stack of mainline (Volks) infantry around with elite infantry (Obers) soon on the way. Manpower at that point is needed for the transition into midgame: for ATG, HMG, light vehicles and elite infantry.

I think this is the main reason they aren't used much in the live build.

I would therefor propose to put them at 0CP, and let them start on a cooldown of 1-2 minutes so they can be deployed as the third unit instead of a Volks squad. Having a long range unit early on would also help OKW as a softcounter to HMGs and snipers. It would supplement the faction really well I think and they might be used much more often this way.


If this were to be changed and proven succesful, it would be obvious to give Pathfinders the same treatment at a later stage.

I agree to an extent in that they sort of face the same problem but there’s a lot of distinguishing factors that make it not nearly as bad for okw.

Things to consider about usf are that riflemen bleed significantly more than volks and are also meant to pretty much carry the faction, and usf doesn’t have access to anything to cut bleed in the early game like sturms, a high cqc dps squad that’s very efficient (as opposed to overly strong or something) on the flanks if used carefully (in the early game anyway) or the kubel, which can go around and cap and fight but not bleed any manpower. Also, usf officers are great but that means even more mandatory infantry squads, and the free infantry are instead compensated by lots of side teching and fairly expensive (manpower wise) healing. All that has its own ups and downs and isn’t necessarily bad or unbalanced for usf but the bottom line is that it makes it harder to somehow shoehorn in even more infantry in your army without lacking support weapons/vehicles or bleeding so hard you can’t reinforce your units. You’re also meant to go and get even more infantry in the form of paras, further exacerbating the problem. Airborne company is also pretty poorly designed, with 4/5 of its abilities being manpower heavy callins that are nice but draining (and 2 of which are literally just stock units to compensate for usfs shitty teching).

If you compare just the two units too, okw is a bit more advantaged. While it’s true that JLIs are pretty expensive and perform best as supporting infantry, they also do very well on their own due to having combat oriented abilities, which pathfinders don’t have at all. Their scoped g43 is also significantly better than a single scoped garand but I don't know how it stacks up against 2, and they also get better camo right off the bat IIRC.

Well baseline is that OKW faces basically the same problem, as Volksgrenadiers are the only thing they can build early on which leaves little room for yet another infantry squad at 2CP. It's a bit more nuanced than the USF but in the end the core issues are similar. You build 3-4 Volks right off the bat, perhaps a Kubel, and the next thing around 2CP you're gonna want is ATG, HMG, light vehicle or save manpower for Obers. There's no room for a just-not-elite squad like JLI.

Moving JLI to 0CP with the deployment cooldown would really allow them to be integrated into the core army as a replacement to a Volks squad. If it turns out their current combat capabilities too good for 0CP, some of their performance at vet0 can be nerfed and moved to vet1-vet2 (like camo and the scoped Gewehr43 accuracy) so they will be at full capacity around the time of 2CP.


As an OKW player I would really appreciate it if there was actually a bit more variation in starting build orders because besides the occasional Kubel or second Sturmpioneer, it's just the same 3-4 Volksgrenadier strat every single match. The sight (50) that JLI give would also be extremely useful in OKW's early game to help avoid HMGs.

As an OKW player I would really appreciate it if there was actually a bit more variation in starting build orders because besides the occasional Kubel or second Sturmpioneer, it's just the same 3-4 Volksgrenadier strat every single match. The sight (50) that JLI give would also be extremely useful in OKW's early game to help avoid HMGs.

Simple conclusion is that JLI and Panthfinders should hit the field earlier. They won't have such a big inpact on a gameplay at early stage of a game so there is not fear becoming an unstoppable meta. Besides why bother JLI with 0 cp and a timer if you can simply move it to 1 cp?

All above what sander93 said also would include panzerfuzzilier as a form of mainline infantry in next future balance patch.

...There's no room for a just-not-elite squad like JLI.
...

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There is a number of issues JLI but one has to be careful since the "critical" kills can be really bad if the unit is blob.

As an infiltration the unit has little shock value due to rifles and no grenade burthey actually good for countering snipers.

Booby trap is good (although it should probably become incendiary and available even if in a not connected territory to increase the infiltration synergy)but it is also available to Obers (which in my opinion should be removed from them).

As an ambush unit the first strike bonus is good but I doubt they will ever be as good as other unit stealth units in wiping squads.(although infiltration grenade do help)

As a support unit their pop is 8 compared to 6 for Pathfinders.

The anti cover/garrison properties of the scoped g43 are interesting but might prove problematic is one manages to spam the unit. (not very easy with a pop 8)

I would suggest to:
Give a grenade to the unit preferably the blendkorper , since DOT grenade are better for stealth unit imo (increase the AT capabilities of the grenade with a temporary critical, since it was designed as AT grenade and the unit lack AT). If another grenade is given to them maybe add a smoke grenade.

Maybe lower pop to 7-6.

Lowering CP might be tricky since if one reduces their attack they might lose the ability to counter sniper but one might try CP 1 since CP 0 is way to early.

Their medic kit should either become free or changed to passive healing as other similar units.

Well baseline is that OKW faces basically the same problem, as Volksgrenadiers are the only thing they can build early on which leaves little room for yet another infantry squad at 2CP. It's a bit more nuanced than the USF but in the end the core issues are similar. You build 3-4 Volks right off the bat, perhaps a Kubel, and the next thing around 2CP you're gonna want is ATG, HMG, light vehicle or save manpower for Obers. There's no room for a just-not-elite squad like JLI.

Moving JLI to 0CP with the deployment cooldown would really allow them to be integrated into the core army as a replacement to a Volks squad. If it turns out their current combat capabilities too good for 0CP, some of their performance at vet0 can be nerfed and moved to vet1-vet2 (like camo and the scoped Gewehr43 accuracy) so they will be at full capacity around the time of 2CP.


As an OKW player I would really appreciate it if there was actually a bit more variation in starting build orders because besides the occasional Kubel or second Sturmpioneer, it's just the same 3-4 Volksgrenadier strat every single match. The sight (50) that JLI give would also be extremely useful in OKW's early game to help avoid HMGs.

For some reason balance team excluded panzerfussie from revamp.
They could have been turned into a semi elite 5 men tier 0 squad to give okw some extra options.

Well baseline is that OKW faces basically the same problem, as Volksgrenadiers are the only thing they can build early on which leaves little room for yet another infantry squad at 2CP. It's a bit more nuanced than the USF but in the end the core issues are similar. You build 3-4 Volks right off the bat, perhaps a Kubel, and the next thing around 2CP you're gonna want is ATG, HMG, light vehicle or save manpower for Obers. There's no room for a just-not-elite squad like JLI.

Moving JLI to 0CP with the deployment cooldown would really allow them to be integrated into the core army as a replacement to a Volks squad. If it turns out their current combat capabilities too good for 0CP, some of their performance at vet0 can be nerfed and moved to vet1-vet2 (like camo and the scoped Gewehr43 accuracy) so they will be at full capacity around the time of 2CP.


As an OKW player I would really appreciate it if there was actually a bit more variation in starting build orders because besides the occasional Kubel or second Sturmpioneer, it's just the same 3-4 Volksgrenadier strat every single match. The sight (50) that JLI give would also be extremely useful in OKW's early game to help avoid HMGs.

True. Just pointing out that it’s even worse for usf so you really see the extent of the pain XD

If the prove to be too strong at 0cp they could have their scoped g43 on a free upgrade that’s locked behind 2cp like I proposed with paths. They’d probably need be infiltration nade (they still have that right?) to be locked behind cp as well since it’s way too cheap to be available in the early game. Theo only thing that worries me is that 2-3 of these backed by a kubel to damage squads so they could crit would be blatantly op in the very early game if they had the g43s at all right off the bat (I get that you wouldn’t have volks but it wouldn’t matter because the game would be over in like 4 minutes). IIRC it crits on models at 70% health or lower and has a very high accuracy. Same with pathfinder snipers, but at 40% and with lower accuracy according to the Cruzz’s Things to Know thread if I’m interpreting it right.

If spamming them is everyone's major concern, why not put a limit on them?

- Either max 1 unit (similar to Ostheer's Jaeger Command Squad);
- Or make the scoped Gewehr 43 an upgrade, limited to max 1 on the field (like 223 bug). This way they could still be used for purposes as infiltration units, such as spawning behind a sniper. This would be my preferred option. Limit extended to max 2 once T4 is up?

The reason I'm suggesting 0CP with a cooldown is so they can roll out as a replacement to the 3rd/4th Volksgrenadier squad, so it would feel much more natural to integrate them into the starting build order. I think generally speaking 1CP is already too late for this. On larger 3v3/4v4 maps you don't Always reach 1CP before the 3rd/4th Volks squad.

I kinda forgot they are an infiltration unit. Would it be possible to disable spawning in ambient buildings somehow until 1-2CP? In my 0CP proposal I'm imagining them being called in via base entrance. I agree being able to spawn all over the map at 0CP would be a bit ridiculous.

Once again, if at 0CP their performance is an issue, it can be toned down and put back into vet1-vet2. Making the scoped Gewehr 43 an upgrade would help with this as well.


Infiltration grenades are doctrinal (only for Scavenge) and locked behind 3CP.


I am happy to note that most people seem to agree that their timing is awkward and one of the major drawbacks of using them. Now we just have to find the middle ground.

If spamming them is everyone's major concern, why not put a limit on them?

- Either max 1 unit (similar to Ostheer's Jaeger Command Squad);
....

Limiting non officer unit to 1 is bad design imo (and that goes for Jaeger Command Squad that has nothing to promote the role of a command squad)

I guess the best way about fixing their arrival, would be to offer 2 way of obtaining the unit (as I have proposed in previous post and the same mechanic could be used for other infiltration/call-in unit units, including ST.T).

1) Build able from base at CP 0 costing around 280 equipped with 4 k98. Able to upgrade with scoped g43 after 1 truck sets up.

2) Call-in unit at CP 2 infiltrating equipped with the G43 to counter snipers.

(the reason I mention infiltration grenades is because I guess one could JLIR to ambush wipe enemy infantry using them in the scavenger doctrine)

Yes, that is why a max 1 unit limit wouldn't be my preferred solution either.

I think there are several good options for a 0CP 'limited power' arrival, with extended power around 1CP or 2CP, but I guess we now need someone from the balance team to confirm whether or not they'd be willing or even able to implement such a system. It's beyond my knowledge of the game to know if it's even possible.


It would certainly add even more flavor to this commander revamp as they would hold quite a unique position as call-in infantry this way.

Remove Commisar heal -> reintroduce Commisar Forward Retreat Point -> Add Forward Retreat Point as an upgrade to OST Concrete Bunker in Defensive Doctrine -> Add 5th man Squad Leader upgrade with single STG44 as paid upgrade to Stormtroopers (Infantry Doctrine only, due to 5th man ability) -> Make Jaeger Light Infantry (OKW) 0CP cost, max 1 unit (affects both doctrines) -> release patch -> My body is ready.

Remove Commisar heal -> reintroduce Commisar Forward Retreat Point -> Add Forward Retreat Point as an upgrade to OST Concrete Bunker in Defensive Doctrine -> Add 5th man Squad Leader upgrade with single STG44 as paid upgrade to Stormtroopers (Infantry Doctrine only, due to 5th man ability) -> Make Jaeger Light Infantry (OKW) 0CP cost, max 1 unit (affects both doctrines) -> release patch -> My body is ready.

And add a British mobile mortar.

The healing on the commissar is so good. I don't understand why anyone would rather use an FRP. For 10 manpower more than the mandatory base medics, you get superior healing, fear propaganda, high explosive grenades, and a decent combat unit.

I get that it was based on the obsolete chassis of the KV tanks and that it's gun was inferior to that of the ISU-152 and the turret was a bit of the wrong design but I don't see what that has to do with my suggestion into making it into a hybrid Self-propelled gun.

Another approach for the KV-2 (possibly for dozer and brumabr also) would be the following:
Unit can act as tank but with munition with allot smaller AOE and low deflection damage.

The unit can enter siege mode where it can not move and gets to fire up to 3 HE rounds at extended ranges not as barrage but shots directed by the user, sort of an attack ground.

After exiting siege mode the ability goes to cool-down.

With these change the unit's balances can be near KV-1 (having better AI and some deflection damage) with a price in the vicinity of 500/160 and CP around 10-12. One could even try to increase limit from 1 to 2 (or even completely remove it if it is moved to T4) since the unit would be closer to heavy tank than a Super heavy tank.