Feedback for Commander Revamppatch

I don't hate the idea of the 223 being used as a cache mid/late game, but the popcap would need to be super low. I just really hope this thing won't go the way of the cargo truck addition to the flame hetzer doctrine; interesting idea but in the end never really used.

What I really want to know is, why hasn't SturmTiger vet requirements received a reduction in any of these revamps? I think it's pretty universally agreed that the current requirements are much too high. Hell, give it a useful vet 1 ability while you're at it pretty please.


Oh and...Panzerfuss are too controversial, but super KV2 that also buffs soviet industry isn't? :thinking

Let's be honest, though. Since when has Soviet Industry ever been used? I for one, welcome our new Industrial overlords. KV-2 is still at 14CP and costs a buttload. What's the problem here?

I don't hate the idea of the 223 being used as a cache mid/late game, but the popcap would need to be super low. I just really hope this thing won't go the way of the cargo truck addition to the flame hetzer doctrine; interesting idea but in the end never really used.

What I really want to know is, why hasn't SturmTiger vet requirements received a reduction in any of these revamps? I think it's pretty universally agreed that the current requirements are much too high. Hell, give it a useful vet 1 ability while you're at it pretty please.


Oh and...Panzerfuss are too controversial, but super KV2 that also buffs soviet industry isn't? :thinking

In CoH it was 2, it will have signal relay and it's an unarmored light vehicle so I would think it would be no more than 4 or 5 pop cap.

Let's be honest, though. Since when has Soviet Industry ever been used? I for one, welcome our new Industrial overlords. KV-2 is still at 14CP and costs a buttload. What's the problem here?

kv2 is actually omegastrong in certain maps, like north moscow or crossing.

223 as a cargo (additional upgrade?) after it fills it role early game - sound good. Really i;m all for it. OKW lacks of basic tool - a resources cashes which here we could get.

Idea about adding pgrens would also sound as a reasonable option not even in 250HT.

But is it all fit the theme of a commander? 223 and a Sturmtiger aren't really suit here.
Why not replace a SturmTiger with a normal panzer VI Tiger tank and save SturmTiger for a next december commanders where it could fit more? Tiger fits the idea of Elite Armor.

There is so many arguments about Sturmtiger - that isn't cannot be squad wipper but it can't be so weak and expensive on the other hand. Just leave it for a better options better time.

Have to add few cents about the Hetzer. @Andy you said it overlaps jp4 - ok fine, but it's the same diffrence between m10 volverine and Jakson, su76 and su85 or t34/76 and t34/85. Jp4 would be just a better version of it and hetzer would be a okw version of a stugIII - just it. Why am i arguing so much about it? Becouse i would love to see some other strat than just going t3 every f*king time to fight medium tanks. Buildable in T0 after T1 and T2 or T3 - would open more diffrent aproach in a gameplay. Same thing i feel about m10. And it's not only me suggesting that thing - don't really understand why are you so afraid about this tankdestroyer.

BTW if you wanna extra slots in a EliteArmor doctrine i suggest to merge Emergency repairs and HEAT in 1 slot - "Elite tank equipment" becouse they both works as a tank abilities.

Speaking of Sturmtiger I dont understand it's nerfs, its already way worse than AVRE to due to how clunky and slow it is, nerfing its AoE and adding supression wont really help it, people build AVRE and ST to counter blobs or walls of AT guns/MGs, nerfing AoE damage pretty much makes Sturmtiger even more useless than it already is

Funny thing about the AoE of the Sturmtiger in the current version of the revamp patch the AVRE does more damage to tanks if it hits right on the target while it seems it also has a better AoE vs tanks if it misses only slightly. So currently the Sturmtiger gets overshadowed by a cheaper vehicle that only lacks a bit of range compared to ST, has lower armor (but more health), a turret and lacks supression.

Funny thing about the AoE of the Sturmtiger in the current version of the revamp patch the AVRE does more damage to tanks if it hits right on the target while it seems it also has a better AoE vs tanks if it misses only slightly. So currently the Sturmtiger gets overshadowed by a cheaper vehicle that only lacks a bit of range compared to ST, has lower armor (but more health), a turret and lacks supression.

Asymetrical balance ????

I do not mind asymetrical balance but the AVRE is overshadowing the Sturmtiger with its way better reload and faster shooting (never even mind the faster reload with a command vehicle nearby) and lower veterancy requirements which will be even harder to gain for the Sturmtiger if it doesn't damage tanks like it used to do.

Lots of good feedback guys.


However, we really like Smartie's idea for a 223 in this doctrine. Apparently, a model exists. Here are a few designs we are thinking about.


Thoughts?

Andy, have you ever consider a 251 reparing HT as replacement for a emergency repairs? SneakyEye made a HT with Recover a Wreck Ability. That (ability) could be replace with simple reparing squad while active. To make it more atractive it could place and sweep mines as well.

It could work as replacement for expensive Sturmpios and those players who don't go mech tier stucture.

There is argument that Emergency Reparing isn't worth it cost compare to soviet equivalent so where is alternative option

What do you think?

Andy, have you ever consider a 251 reparing HT as replacement for a emergency repairs? SneakyEye made a HT with Recover a Wreck Ability. That (ability) could be replace with simple reparing squad while active. To make it more atractive it could place and sweep mines as well.

It could work as replacement for expensive Sturmpios and those players who don't go mech tier stucture.

There is argument that Emergency Reparing isn't worth it cost compare to soviet equivalent so where is alternative option

What do you think?

I think it's out of the question sadly since they removed the zombie army mechanics from the first game.

You know, medics running around collecting wounded and then popping out a new squad.

And without it's recovery function it would make it just a mobile repair bunker.

Vehicle detection is not need for a faction that already gets a half track w/ infrared. Give them something more interesting like radio intercept maybe?

I think it's out of the question sadly since they removed the zombie army mechanics from the first game.

You know, medics running around collecting wounded and then popping out a new squad.

And without it's recovery function it would make it just a mobile repair bunker.

No, no, no. You don't get it.

I mean IF the recovery option is possible THEN the HT that can repair tanks/vehicules and lay/sweep mines is also possible. So yeah mobile reparing bunker. It reminds me the old Blitzkrieg game series.

I suggest replacing Emergency reparing with a HT that can repair stuff to be a cheaper replacement for Sturmpio squad.

Of course the zombie army mechanic won't happen and i;m not suggesting it at all.

Vehicle detection is not need for a faction that already gets a half track w/ infrared. Give them something more interesting like radio intercept maybe?

If it would ultimately get heal as well it would be the perfect T1 replacement as the 223 itself could softcounter HMG spam replacing the ISG, the Signal Relay ability would partially replace the IR HT and its healing would replace the truck medics. This would make the commander very attractive for T2 strats as the HEAT shells also drastically improve the Puma.

No, no, no. You don't get it.

I mean IF the recovery option is possible THEN the HT that can repair tanks/vehicules and lay/sweep mines is also possible. So yeah mobile reparing bunker. It reminds me the old Blitzkrieg game series.

I suggest replacing Emergency reparing with a HT that can repair stuff to be a cheaper replacement for Sturmpio squad.

Of course the zombie army mechanic won't happen and i;m not suggesting it at all.

It would be a bit problematic for such a lightly armored thing to tag along with tanks, I tried it in the All Units mod and I lost it most of the time because there is really no safe place you can repair in peace with it, except for maybe your base, provided it's not in the enemy's artillery range.

The reason why the Bergetiger worked was because it was so beefy.

Anyhow I suppose that it could work as a mobile repair bunker provided it could "lockdown" behind a shotblocker and hand out automatic repairs so it doesn't need to be babysitted. The USF M3 HT in the AA campaign even had such an upgrade so you could potentially even just put in a regular 251 HT which you can then upgrade for the repairs.

Otherwise a 200 and something manpower costing paper armored light vehicle that is saving a few pop cap off of the much more durable and I would say utility wise more useful Sturmpioneers will not be really worth it.

223 as a cargo (additional upgrade?) after it fills it role early game - sound good. Really i;m all for it. OKW lacks of basic tool - a resources cashes which here we could get.

Idea about adding pgrens would also sound as a reasonable option not even in 250HT.

But is it all fit the theme of a commander? 223 and a Sturmtiger aren't really suit here.
Why not replace a SturmTiger with a normal panzer VI Tiger tank and save SturmTiger for a next december commanders where it could fit more? Tiger fits the idea of Elite Armor.

There is so many arguments about Sturmtiger - that isn't cannot be squad wipper but it can't be so weak and expensive on the other hand. Just leave it for a better options better time.

Have to add few cents about the Hetzer. @Andy you said it overlaps jp4 - ok fine, but it's the same diffrence between m10 volverine and Jakson, su76 and su85 or t34/76 and t34/85. Jp4 would be just a better version of it and hetzer would be a okw version of a stugIII - just it. Why am i arguing so much about it? Becouse i would love to see some other strat than just going t3 every f*king time to fight medium tanks. Buildable in T0 after T1 and T2 or T3 - would open more diffrent aproach in a gameplay. Same thing i feel about m10. And it's not only me suggesting that thing - don't really understand why are you so afraid about this tankdestroyer.

BTW if you wanna extra slots in a EliteArmor doctrine i suggest to merge Emergency repairs and HEAT in 1 slot - "Elite tank equipment" becouse they both works as a tank abilities.

Speaking of Sturmtiger I dont understand it's nerfs, its already way worse than AVRE to due to how clunky and slow it is, nerfing its AoE and adding supression wont really help it, people build AVRE and ST to counter blobs or walls of AT guns/MGs, nerfing AoE damage pretty much makes Sturmtiger even more useless than it already is

I share Stark's and Kirrik's opinion about the Sturmtiger. Imo it should be a high risk/ high regard unit and right now and after the nerfs its more a high risk/ low regard unit.
I think its totally fair to be more conservative about drastic changes in doctrines at the start of the process and try to make existing units better. But thats REALLY hard to do for the Sturmtiger because the gap between op/bot helpful is so small.(sorry for my bad English, i hope you know what i mean).
I would also prefer to see the Sturmtiger replaced with a Tiger I - let's at least test it. Same for 223 car. If it works out - fine, if not the mod team can go back to the current version or fall back to the very good other options (Panzergrenadiere call- in) for example.
I think replacing the sturmtiger would not be very controversial: if players thought that the unit would be worth it, you would see the doctrine in much more load outs.

I really just think the ST needs some ease of use changes to make it worth its cost/popcap. Replace the vet 1 ability with something actually useful like a recon flare similar to Soviet mortar/Panzerfuss, long range smoke (something similar to Shermans), or at least passive grenade throwing like Comets. The current 20 munition grenade ability is one of the worst in the game in my opinion, total waste of munitions in a commander that is munition ability heavy.

Then slash the vet requirements in half. It already rarely if ever reached vet 3+ when it could damage tanks, now that's next to impossible with the damage/range nerfs. No point in having 5 levels of vet if you can't reasonably attain them in a competitive match.

One option for Sturmtiger is also, to make it a mobile B-4 with less range. So you get a long-range artillery.

I really just think the ST needs some ease of use changes to make it worth its cost/popcap. Replace the vet 1 ability with something actually useful like a recon flare similar to Soviet mortar/Panzerfuss, long range smoke (something similar to Shermans), or at least passive grenade throwing like Comets. The current 20 munition grenade ability is one of the worst in the game in my opinion, total waste of munitions in a commander that is munition ability heavy.

Then slash the vet requirements in half. It already rarely if ever reached vet 3+ when it could damage tanks, now that's next to impossible with the damage/range nerfs. No point in having 5 levels of vet if you can't reasonably attain them in a competitive match.

I'm inclinded to agree, especially on the veterancy issue. The current values are way too high. Infantry kills barely give it any veterancy.

Also now that it has its damage 'balanced', it would benefit to get back a bit more range and a bit faster aim time.

@Andy_RE

Please, reconsider Panzerfusilers for Elite Armor.

1) Reworking them could benefit Breakthrough as well which is pretty much dead, so it would bring 2 doctrines back to life

2) Panzerfusiliers ARE Panzergrenadiers, as explained in the bullettin description, very elite panzergrenadier regiments that earned such honorific name. They perfectly FIT Elite Armor thematically.

At this point i don't get what is the point of stationary ability for KV2, the unit pretty much plays better if you keep it mobile IMHO in 1.4.

Consider changing the ability to something that ACTIVELY support infantry, like a large smoke shell fired from main gun.

Edit: making it comes faster would be better as well, like 10 CP.