Feedback for Commander Revamppatch

I think most people generally agree that Elite Armor would be more attractive if Signal relay is replaced.

So what are our options?

• -reworked Panzerfüssies (I really like Sanders idea (huge benefit: would help "Breakthrough commander too)
  
• - Call- in Panzergrenadiers with SdKfz.250
  
• - my idea: Call-in Flamer-HT
  
  But wait, why does OKW need a further AI-vehicle, we can already build the Luchs and Flak-HT?
  
• - Lets say you could get the HT already equipped with the flamer for 40 fuel and 280 MP (please dont ankylose on the numbers). This would give you the option to get a nice ai-light vehicle which would help you in the early game (and on urban maps!) and you could save 15 fuel compared to the Flak-ht and even more compared to the luchs. Saving fuel here would be key for faster teching / getting out the tanks that can use tank commander / heat.
  
  
  
  
  
  

I think most people generally agree that Elite Armor would be more attractive if Signal relay is replaced.

So what are our options?

• -reworked Panzerfüssies (I really like Sanders idea (huge benefit: would help "Breakthrough commander too)
  
• - Call- in Panzergrenadiers with SdKfz.250
  
• - my idea: Call-in Flamer-HT
  
  But wait, why does OKW need a further AI-vehicle, we can already build the Luchs and Flak-HT?
  
• - Lets say you could get the HT already equipped with the flamer for 40 fuel and 280 MP (please dont ankylose on the numbers). This would give you the option to get a nice ai-light vehicle which would help you in the early game (and on urban maps!) and you could save 15 fuel compared to the Flak-ht and even more compared to the luchs. Saving fuel here would be key for faster teching / getting out the tanks that can use tank commander / heat.
  
  

Other options are the Hetzer TD variant which would act similarly to the Ostheer Puma (in it's role so to speak) and the 223 Scout Car which will capture and lockdown territory like the PE variant and Ostheer Opel Blitz Truck.

Armored Elite does not need anything else, it never needed rework in first place, it just needed buffs to lackluster stuff it got.
Changes just for the sake of changes are bad, thats how Osttruppen ended up with useless supply drop - people thought resource conversion wasnt good enough and "commander needed something else".
Relay is recon ability of this commander, sticking into another commander, especially Overwatch is pointless - that one already has good recon on its own

Armored Elite does not need anything else, it never needed rework in first place, it just needed buffs to lackluster stuff it got.
Changes just for the sake of changes are bad, thats how Osttruppen ended up with useless supply drop - people thought resource conversion wasnt good enough and "commander needed something else".
Relay is recon ability of this commander, sticking into another commander, especially Overwatch is pointless - that one already has good recon on its own

Well, that's what the mod team rightfully did with tank commander and autorepair. Sturmtiger was also reworked. We are discussion here only the replacing of 1 ability . If you would add a call-in (infantry or vehicle) for signal delay, Elite Armor would still have 4 of 5 original abilities and it would certainly NOT "a change just for the sake of change": Sanders idea would for example give you a strategically choice between Vlks und Pfüssies, Pgrens would certainly help faction with bad AT and the flamer-ht would better on urban maps a lot better the the luchs /flak-ht.

Other options are the Hetzer TD variant which would act similarly to the Ostheer Puma (in it's role so to speak) and the 223 Scout Car which will capture and lockdown territory like the PE variant and Ostheer Opel Blitz Truck.

+1

Armored Elite does not need anything else, it never needed rework in first place, it just needed buffs to lackluster stuff it got.
Changes just for the sake of changes are bad, thats how Osttruppen ended up with useless supply drop - people thought resource conversion wasnt good enough and "commander needed something else".
Relay is recon ability of this commander, sticking into another commander, especially Overwatch is pointless - that one already has good recon on its own

I would argue that the Sturmtiger still does not fit into the doctrine, you could also see several other people talk about it as well.

All veterancy based and resource conversion abilities were removed because there was no counter play, both for the Ostheer and USF you had insta vet 1 or 2 units on the field, as far as resources go you had an instant boost of a particular resource which was highly abusable, that is why they were either changed or replaced, not because someone complained that Osttruppen needed something else.

And finally, Signal Relay is indeed the "recon" ability of the commander but it's at the same time highly situational.

Some people say that it helps with counter play against the USF, even if so, what if you're not playing against the USF, or what the enemy is smart enough to give it a guess that you will use signal relay if he notices an Elite Armor ability in use to not have an ambulance/major combo setup somewhere just because of it?

Something like Panzer Elite will probably be much more useful and used much more often in the long run against all Armies, and at the same time not be so case specific/situational.

Nothing was changed or replaced about resource conversion, its still on CAS and Luftwaffe. Osttrupen commander got it's ability removed for a sake of changes.

Relay is not situaltional in any way, its cheap and always useful in late game against any faction.

Mechanized Doctrine:

The WC51 is great, it's like a suped up Kubel and it totally changes how you approach map control, you get a mark target ,etc. No Problems here.

Cavalry Riflemen: Not sure what these are suppose to be, they get grease guns, upgrade to some Thompsons and yet they seem incredibly fragile. They don't appear to have the profile of riflemen? Like I can rush grens with Riflemens and barely lose a model but if i rush them with Cavalrymen they drop like flies! It feels like their received accuracy is really terrible because I also saw P4's sniping nearly FOUR models at once (could be bad clumping mechanics too).

I tried and tried, and they just feel like garbage.

The Sherman in the doctrine also feels pretty bad, I'm not sure what role it is to fulfill as it can't swap rounds (it never could to be fair) but dies as fast as a regular sherman, misses a lot, seems to have the same penetration profile and it's more expensive? am I missing something here?

You know all heavily viable commanders often also have some sort of Strafe, Bomb, something at top tier to dump your munitions late game. Doctrines that don't tend to suffer and are not picky as often, the P47's, Time on Target, Cluster Mines, they are all heavily sought after for team games. I don't think Mechanized will see much spotlight sadly.

Just my opinion, but the top commanders often have a formula and Mechanized is not there yet.a

Nothing was changed or replaced about resource conversion, its still on CAS and Luftwaffe. Osttrupen commander got it's ability removed for a sake of changes.

Relay is not situaltional in any way, its cheap and always useful in late game against any faction.

It's not a direct resource conversion as it requires planes that could be shot down by the enemy fly over a point and drop supplies on it.

And the late game is a situation which you might not even reach in some well played circumstances.

The point is - it was a great ability and it was removed from Osttruppen just for sake of something new.
It was unneeded change and it made commander weaker in late game. Same would happen if Relay is removed from Armored Elite

The point is - it was a great ability and it was removed from Osttruppen just for sake of something new.
It was unneeded change and it made commander weaker in late game. Same would happen if Relay is removed from Armored Elite

And that's the point where we agree to disagree: You think Relay is a very helpful ability and others think that a call-in would be the better choice. Suum cuique.

It wasnt needed and it made commander weaker in late game. Same would happen if Relay is removed from Armored Elite

I think most people just feel like Signal Relay - while it can be useful - is not good enough to take up a full ability slot. I honestly think it becomes fairly worthless in the late game anyway because by then (in team games) front lines have been established and the position of enemy armor can be guessed quite easily. With the other abilities of this commander being very munitions heavy, there's usually no room for a mediocre recon ability anyway.

Most suggestions call for the ability to be included in another ability (like Panzer Commander or Emergency Repairs) so it frees up an ability slot for something like a good call-in rather than having it removed completely.

Even with all the buffs I still think Elite Armor will not be competitive enough as long as Signal Relay isn't replaced by something much more influencial - such as a Panzerfusiliers/Panzergrenadiers call-in or Panzer Tactician smoke.

Regarding Commisar, if blobbing was a concern why give that squad retreat point? Soviets dont actually have non-doc healing outside of their base meaining the only way you can realistically use it is parking your commisar near UKF forward assembly or USF Ambulance and we all know it will end very badly with stuka/offmap wiping everything out

Grenade was a step in right direction, retreat point in my opinion is not.

Unless you want to give this commander a ZiS-6 truck which reinforce and can drop healthpacks or something like that, retreat point will become pointless due to fact you'll have to send your troops back to base for healing, in fact it will become a drawback due to reinforcement penalties

This includes teamgames. If you afraid of stuka/offmap wipping - don't use it but don't block the option for others.

I would be good if they added some sort of healing to the commander (replacing 1 model for a healer sound interesting)

I think most people just feel like Signal Relay - while it can be useful - is not good enough to take up a full ability slot. I honestly think it becomes fairly worthless in the late game anyway because by then (in team games) front lines have been established and the position of enemy armor can be guessed quite easily. With the other abilities of this commander being very munitions heavy, there's usually no room for a mediocre recon ability anyway.

Most suggestions call for the ability to be included in another ability (like Panzer Commander or Emergency Repairs) so it frees up an ability slot for something like a good call-in rather than having it removed completely.

Even with all the buffs I still think Elite Armor will not be competitive enough as long as Signal Relay isn't replaced by something much more influencial - such as a Panzerfusiliers/Panzergrenadiers call-in or Panzer Tactician smoke.

+1
Could not agree more!

It's not a direct resource conversion as it requires planes that could be shot down by the enemy fly over a point and drop supplies on it.

And the late game is a situation which you might not even reach in some well played circumstances.

I have yet to see a singular of these planes shot down ever since the ability was implemented.

I don't think it even can be shot down or its just a mark on minimap and then a drop spawn.

Soviet one can be shot down, ost one can be stolen due to need to drop it forward.

I have yet to see a singular of these planes shot down ever since the ability was implemented.

I don't think it even can be shot down or its just a mark on minimap and then a drop spawn.

Soviet one can be shot down, ost one can be stolen due to need to drop it forward.

Even if so it still leaves room for counterplay while the Osttruppen ability was an instant transfer of resources like I already said.

Even if so it still leaves room for counterplay while the Osttruppen ability was an instant transfer of resources like I already said.

It doesn't matter what it was, all uncounterable resource altering abilities got removed or altered into counterable ones.

Osttruppen one was change to fit the theme more, theme of supportive doctrine.

all uncounterable resource altering abilities got removed or altered into counterable ones.

What's your point exactly? You're just repeating what I said.

It honestly just feels like you're arguing for the sake of arguing or trying to feel like you're right sometimes.

And back to KV-2, what is supposed damage in tank mode?
It certainly doesn't feel like 240 it used to be based on what it did to a bunker.

@up
might have missed the point previously